LOUD NOISES

[Shikaka]

Do you know what I said?

"It's almost as if people don't want uncertainty in their future. "
The guy who responded to me said the equivalent of "Go find another job". I said the system can be improved, and if you let it stay as it is, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. Inertia fixes nothing.
He later ended up agreeing with me when he pointed out the uncertainties in the system, then blew me off when I pointed that out. Tell me, should I say- wow big ATC man! You're correct! I am wrong! No, he resorted to pointing out my lack of experience as a weakness (unrelated to the original argument) as a way to get a shot in.

Read that argument and tell me if you get a different perspective, I'd love to see how you interpret it.

And to your question- I don't care which trainee I am. From reading this forum, if you're bad at the job, eventually you will flame out because you're dead weight and maybe lives won't be lost because you got certified from being likable instead of skill. If you're good, you're good regardless of how likable you are(and hopefully the pressure won't crack you)


I never said the system was broken. I said it can be improved.
Anyone who reads this board can tell you that.

tldr K

 

[Mr.Tickles]

Do you know what I said?

"It's almost as if people don't want uncertainty in their future. "
The guy who responded to me said the equivalent of "Go find another job". I said the system can be improved, and if you let it stay as it is, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. Inertia fixes nothing.
He later ended up agreeing with me when he pointed out the uncertainties in the system, then blew me off when I pointed that out. Tell me, should I say- wow big ATC man! You're correct! I am wrong! No, he resorted to pointing out my lack of experience as a weakness (unrelated to the original argument) as a way to get a shot in.

Read that argument and tell me if you get a different perspective, I'd love to see how you interpret it.

And to your question- I don't care which trainee I am. From reading this forum, if you're bad at the job, eventually you will flame out because you're dead weight and maybe lives won't be lost because you got certified from being likable instead of skill. If you're good, you're good regardless of how likable you are(and hopefully the pressure won't crack you)

How do you think you become good?

Magic?

Or from hundreds of hours of good instruction from trainers and CPCs teaching you? Do you really think you'll receive that good instruction if no one likes you?

Seriously man, here's some solid advice. Speaking as a current trainee check your attitude and know your place. Your job as a trainee will be to know everything, do as your told, when you're told, and to respect those around you.

You show up to a facility with your current attitude you're displaying here, you're going to make a challenging process magnitudes more difficult for yourself.

 

[Ad1234]

The algorithm for NCEPT has been known for months now dude, it’s another acronym: PAC.

I’m aware. I don’t have any problems with ncept, other whiny babies do.

The point that people are trying to make is. Sure the system can be improved, but that doesn't mean it will be. If you're one of those types of people that gets bent out of shape about everything single little thing that doesn't go as you think it should, buckle up. The hiring phase of this career is the least frustrating thing about the agency, I've seen folks get PROC'd for saying 10 instead of 1-0, amongst other dumb things.

And by the way people have washed just because they aren't likable. You should absolutely care what type of trainee you are. If you choose to be the stubborn one that nobody likes you will have the worst experience even if you can do the job. Come in everyday humble and show that your teachable and we will go out of our way to help when you struggle.

oh man a proc, you know they are meaningless right? Most people can’t even find them after the fact just like they can’t find a quality vector.

 

[SIXTY-NINE]

The point that people are trying to make is. Sure the system can be improved, but that doesn't mean it will be. If you're one of those types of people that gets bent out of shape about everything single little thing that doesn't go as you think it should, buckle up. The hiring phase of this career is the least frustrating thing about the agency, I've seen folks get PROC'd for saying 10 instead of 1-0, amongst other dumb things.

And by the way people have washed just because they aren't likable. You should absolutely care what type of trainee you are. If you choose to be the stubborn one that nobody likes you will have the worst experience even if you can do the job. Come in everyday humble and show that your teachable and we will go out of our way to help when you struggle.

What kind of person I am doesn't matter in this discussion- like I said originally- it was a comment on how people don't like uncertainty in their lives. And like I said before- I don't care which trainee I am. I don't suck up. I do the job, and if people don't like my personality that's fine. I don't expect everyone to like me.

"system can be improved, but that doesn't mean it will be. "
So work to improve the system? Close to half the topics on P65 are people complaining about NATCA or the FAA or the Government or how they have a bad work schedule. Almost none of them talk about steps they've taken to address the issues they have. Like I said before- if you don't work for the solution you are part of the problem.

How do you think you become good?

Magic?

Or from hundreds of hours of good instruction from trainers and CPCs teaching you? Do you really think you'll receive that good instruction if no one likes you?

Seriously man, here's some solid advice. Speaking as a current trainee check your attitude and know your place. Your job as a trainee will be to know everything, do as your told, when you're told, and to respect those around you.

You show up to a facility with your current attitude you're displaying here, you're going to make a challenging process magnitudes more difficult for yourself.

That's great advice. Thanks! Like I said, I never mentioned anything about training. Everyone tries to make it about training but I haven't mentioned it once in my initial argument- try actually responding to what I originally wrote instead of making it about inexperience. Everything else is tangential.

"It's almost as if people don't want uncertainty in their future. "

tldr K

TLDR "What you said was right but I'm not going to admit it"

TL;DR EDIT: Everyone is saying "You're missing the point about training and attitude" is missing my point. My original comment was about improving the system and how people should work to fix their situations instead of doing nothing. I pointed out that someone was arguing FOR a point I made, he got salty and made a jab at me and I made one back. Now everyone is making it about "attitude".

 

[Robert_Boucher]

I know they're meaningless but for a sup to take the time to pull tapes and then sit down with someone for something so idiotic is beyond me. Even though they are meaningless it still bothers me to get a negative one.

 

[Super Salt]

Lotta flexing in this thread. I like it.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

"system can be improved, but that doesn't mean it will be. "
So work to improve the system? Close to half the topics on P65 are people complaining about NATCA or the FAA or the Government or how they have a bad work schedule. Almost none of them talk about steps they've taken to address the issues they have. Like I said before- if you don't work for the solution you are part of the problem.

If you are complaining about the hiring process that's falling on deaf ears here, controllers have nothing to do with that. Let me ask you this, if you new hires don't like the hiring process, what have you done to change it. Have you written to your Senator complaining about the inefficiency of the government?
Just because you don't see every meaningful thing about NATCA or the FAA on here doesn't mean that some of us aren't working to better things. I am personally involved in my NATCA local trying to change things, and I'm not posting ever single detail of things on here that's not how it works.

You may not have said anything about training in your original comment but you did make the statement that it doesn't matter what type of trainee I am so I responded to that.

I like your go get it done attitude, but day 1 in the Agency you will realize management and those in the district offices really don't care what you have to say.

 

[SIXTY-NINE]

If you are complaining about the hiring process that's falling on deaf ears here, controllers have nothing to do with that. Let me ask you this, if you new hires don't like the hiring process, what have you done to change it. Have you written to your Senator complaining about the inefficiency of the government?
Just because you don't see every meaningful thing about NATCA or the FAA on here doesn't mean that some of us aren't working to better things. I am personally involved in my NATCA local trying to change things, and I'm not posting ever single detail of things on here that's not how it works.

You may not have said anything about training in your original comment but you did make the statement that it doesn't matter what type of trainee I am so I responded to that.

I like your go get it done attitude, but day 1 in the Agency you will realize management and those in the district offices really don't care what you have to say.

I am not- personally I've enjoyed the hiring process because I'm literally sitting on my ass collecting paychecks and learning new things. Will I face delays and rules that will frustrate me? Yes, and I will work towards improving them when I face them instead of complaining. Like I said before, "If you don't work to improve the system you're part of the problem, not the solution. ".

People usually don't complain about the way things are done until they're the ones doing it and become the ones who's burden it is to fix it, which is what I'm trying to get people replying to realize.

And yes, lodge a complaint to the FAA or call your congressman and get your friends/family to do it if it bothers you so much. If it doesn't, then grin and bear it. Don't complain about it endlessly on this forum if you're doing nothing to improve your situation. Keep people accountable.

"Just because you don't see every meaningful thing about NATCA or the FAA on here doesn't mean that some of us aren't working to better things. I am personally involved in my NATCA local trying to change things, and I'm not posting ever single detail of things on here that's not how it works."
Good job, thanks for working to improve the system.

 

[Maintainvfr]

I am not- personally I've enjoyed the hiring process because I'm literally sitting on my ass collecting paychecks and learning new things. Will I face delays and rules that will frustrate me? Yes, and I will work towards improving them when I face them instead of complaining. Like I said before, "If you don't work to improve the system you're part of the problem, not the solution. ".

People usually don't complain about the way things are done until they're the ones doing it and become the ones who's burden it is to fix it, which is what I'm trying to get people replying to realize.

And yes, lodge a complaint to the FAA or call your congressman and get your friends/family to do it if it bothers you so much. If it doesn't, then grin and bear it. Don't complain about it endlessly on this forum if you're doing nothing to improve your situation. Keep people accountable.

"Just because you don't see every meaningful thing about NATCA or the FAA on here doesn't mean that some of us aren't working to better things. I am personally involved in my NATCA local trying to change things, and I'm not posting ever single detail of things on here that's not how it works."
Good job, thanks for working to improve the system.

The reality is that if you think people on here don't care or obtuse, wait until you really deal with the FAA. That's why you get such pushback. Everyone knows the system is broken, the difference is we all have dealt with it for so much longer in so many more ways. It's not that were not trying to fix things, it's that we understand there's things we can fix and things we can't. Complaining about uncertainty in the hiring process is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere.

Also the whole I don't suck up I do the job thing is fine, but guess what? You can't do the job. Unless people train you. No matter how good you can be, you're going to suck big balls and have horrible sessions for a while. You're not going to do the job well unless you have an effective training team. If they hate you, they're not going to want to work with you for 20+ years, so hate it or love it they're not going to help you.

One parting thought - this is basically like a venting thread for actual controllers, which you aren't. I'm sure that'ss a big reason why nobody gives a shit about new hire posts on it. If you want to gripe about what the process is like and have people care, I bet the hiring threads would rally around you and you can all band together to change nothing

 

[DankVectorz]

I mean, everyone is kinda right. The hiring process for the FAA is jacked up. It has been for decades. There’s absolutely no way to say otherwise. It’s actually the most efficient and speedy now (well, pre-Covid) than it ever has been before.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

Not knowing if you’ll be hired,
Not knowing if you’ll pass the academy,
Not knowing where your first facility will be,
Not knowing if you will certify...

Look at all the certainty.

Also add on not knowing if you will ever get to leave your first facility if you do certify.

 

[Super Salt]

The reality is that if you think people on here don't care or obtuse, wait until you really deal with the FAA. That's why you get such pushback. Everyone knows the system is broken, the difference is we all have dealt with it for so much longer in so many more ways. It's not that were not trying to fix things, it's that we understand there's things we can fix and things we can't. Complaining about uncertainty in the hiring process is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere.

Also the whole I don't suck up I do the job thing is fine, but guess what? You can't do the job. Unless people train you. No matter how good you can be, you're going to suck big balls and have horrible sessions for a while. You're not going to do the job well unless you have an effective training team. If they hate you, they're not going to want to work with you for 20+ years, so hate it or love it they're not going to help you.

One parting thought - this is basically like a venting thread for actual controllers, which you aren't. I'm sure that'ss a big reason why nobody gives a shit about new hire posts on it. If you want to gripe about what the process is like and have people care, I bet the hiring threads would rally around you and you can all band together to change nothing

For once I do agree with you on something. Looks like the kid’s attempts at fixing the system is working!

 

[SIXTY-NINE]

The reality is that if you think people on here don't care or obtuse, wait until you really deal with the FAA. That's why you get such pushback. Everyone knows the system is broken, the difference is we all have dealt with it for so much longer in so many more ways. It's not that were not trying to fix things, it's that we understand there's things we can fix and things we can't. Complaining about uncertainty in the hiring process is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere.

Guess what? I didn't complain about the hiring process. I riffed off the guy complaining about kids complaining about the hiring process.
"It's almost as if people don't want uncertainty in their future. " Literally meant as a joke and the guy takes it as a personal attack on his character and acts like I killed his family.
He brought up "Better pick another career field then" as if the system are the 10 commandments sent down by God.

Like I've repeated ad nauseum, my point is: "If you don't work to improve the system you're part of the problem, not the solution. "

Also the whole I don't suck up I do the job thing is fine, but guess what? You can't do the job. Unless people train you. No matter how good you can be, you're going to suck big balls and have horrible sessions for a while. You're not going to do the job well unless you have an effective training team. If they hate you, they're not going to want to work with you for 20+ years, so hate it or love it they're not going to help you.

Like I've repeated ad nauseum again, I don't care.
My original post was about improving the system. I couldn't care less what people have to say about attitude because I never brought it up.

One parting thought - this is basically like a venting thread for actual controllers, which you aren't. I'm sure that'ss a big reason why nobody gives a shit about new hire posts on it. If you want to gripe about what the process is like and have people care, I bet the hiring threads would rally around you and you can all band together to change nothing

I am not griping about what the process is like. I'm griping about people who gripe that the process is unfair/illogical and do nothing to correct that. And it looks like there are no restrictions in place- guess what? It's open to everyone then! Show me the rules that say "Venting thread for actual controllers only" and I'll delete my posts. Adding a rule in retroactively doesn't count


Parting thought for you because I think YOU seem to be have trouble understanding the thread of this conversation:
As I said earlier:

Everyone is saying "You're missing the point about training and attitude" is missing my point. My original comment was about improving the system and how people should work to fix their situations instead of doing nothing. I pointed out that someone was arguing FOR a point I made, he got salty and made a jab at me and I made one back. Now everyone is making it about "attitude".

 

[Super Salt]

PushingTin, get in here and complete this thread for us.

 

[denver0739]

 

[SIXTY-NINE]

PushingTin, get in here and complete this thread for us.

Was thinking of doing the same lol PushingTin get in here

 

[Maintainvfr]

Guess what? I didn't complain about the hiring process. I riffed off the guy complaining about kids complaining about the hiring process.
"It's almost as if people don't want uncertainty in their future. " Literally meant as a joke and the guy takes it as a personal attack on his character and acts like I killed his family.
He brought up "Better pick another career field then" as if the system are the 10 commandments sent down by God.

Guess what? You can be snarky all you want, but your joke was about UNCERTAINTY IN THE HIRING PROCESS. Which is exactly what I said. You can say that I'm the one that can't understand and use all the bold text you want, but you still won't actually be as smart as you think you are.

Like I've repeated ad nauseum again, I don't care.
My original post was about improving the system. I couldn't care less what people have to say about attitude because I never brought it up.

If you make additional posts, then they are applicable too. You don't get to say whatever you want and then only want to talk about your original post. What are you talking about bringing it up? Just because you didn't say "well my attitude..." Doesn't mean you don't have one? Some of us actually understand subtext.

I am not griping about what the process is like. I'm griping about people who gripe that the process is unfair/illogical and do nothing to correct that. And it looks like there are no restrictions in place- guess what? It's open to everyone then! Show me the rules that say "Venting thread for actual controllers only" and I'll delete my posts. Adding a rule in retroactively doesn't count

I'm not saying you can't post. I'm trying to help you understand the pushback, because you're clearly having a hard time on your own.

Like I've repeated ad nauseum, my point is: "If you don't work to improve the system you're part of the problem, not the solution. "

At some point you learn to prioritize. We work to improve things that we can make an impact on.

 

[SIXTY-NINE]

Guess what? You can be snarky all you want, but your joke was about UNCERTAINTY IN THE HIRING PROCESS. Which is exactly what I said. You can say that I'm the one that can't understand and use all the bold text you want, but you still won't actually be as smart as you think you are.

"How are these kids any different than people trying to figure out the algorithm of ncept every panel? Bunch of whiny babies, when is it my turn? Wah wah wah. "

This is the post I replied to. This is about uncertainty in general- not JUST in the hiring process- if you could use subtext yourself you would read that and understand. Bold enough for you to notice? I'm bolding the parts of my posts that are especially important so you can reread them and try to use your brain to comprehend what I am saying.

If you make additional posts, then they are applicable too. You don't get to say whatever you want and then only want to talk about your original post. What are you talking about bringing it up? Just because you didn't say "well my attitude..." Doesn't mean you don't have one? Some of us actually understand subtext.

Of course people are going to reply "Your attitude is the problem" when I say "I'm not talking about my attitude". Then people are going to say "You can't talk about just your original post!!!". Like I said before again, the attitude posts are tangential.
I am talking about bringing it up because people are trying to attack me for my attitude when I am pointing out that someone, as repeated ad nauseum:

Everyone is saying "You're missing the point about training and attitude" is missing my point. My original comment was about improving the system and how people should work to fix their situations instead of doing nothing. I pointed out that someone was arguing FOR a point I made, he got salty and made a jab at me and I made one back. Now everyone is making it about "attitude".

I'm not saying you can't post. I'm trying to help you understand the pushback, because you're clearly having a hard time on your own.

I understand where the pushback is from. The pushback is from me saying that people can improve the situation they are in and others are REEEEE-ing because they've given up and suffer the consequences of their inaction, saying that I have an "attitude problem" because I say "Then work to improve your situation". and I don't sugarcoat it for them.

At some point you learn to prioritize. We work to improve things that we can make an impact on.

Then work on them and stop posting on a thread that's "grinding your gears" when you could make an impact.

Is arguing with someone who hasn't even gone to Basics prioritizing?

 

[Mr.Tickles]

That's great advice. Thanks! Like I said, I never mentioned anything about training. Everyone tries to make it about training but I haven't mentioned it once in my initial argument- try actually responding to what I originally wrote instead of making it about inexperience. Everything else is tangential.

"It's almost as if people don't want uncertainty in their future. "

I responded exactly where I meant to and to what I meant to. Just passing along some advice which so far you're ignoring. I didn't respond to agree or disagree about your opinion on the state of things.

Tact my friend. No one cares you have an opinion...it's how your opinion has been presented that is an issue.

 

[SIXTY-NINE]

I responded exactly where I meant to and to what I meant to. Just passing along some advice which so far you're ignoring. I didn't respond to agree or disagree about your opinion on the state of things.

Tact my friend. No one cares you have an opinion...it's how your opinion has been presented that is an issue.

Another "Attitude" post.

Again:

Everyone is saying "You're missing the point about training and attitude" is missing my point. My original comment was about improving the system and how people should work to fix their situations instead of doing nothing. I pointed out that someone was arguing FOR a point I made, he got salty and made a jab at me and I made one back. Now everyone is making it about "attitude".