N90 to PHL

N90-EWR

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FAA
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85
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
The FAA has spent the last 10 years consolidating approaches and there are 15 more consolidations in the pipeline right now. This is the test run to see if everything runs smoothly before they bust the rest of the building up. They're sending ZSU to ZMA and SJU approach to RSW...the consolidations are only getting bigger. There are whispers of breaking up ZNY and sending the airspace to ZOB, ZDC, and ZBW because SWAP is the biggest crock of shit in the NAS.

As long as there are override lines, there's no reason the approach sectors can't be separated.
Override lines from one tracon to another? Never seen that done before, but I guess it's possible.

As for the "test run to see if everything runs smoothly" part, this is why I said what I said about them likely reversing this move down the line. It will NOT go smoothly! Consolidations elsewhere have little to no bearing on this. This is NY, and what happens there has significant repercussions to the entire NAS. When the airlines (and the flying public) start crying because of record delays, there will be enough pressure to bring the old status quo back. Whether that last part happens or not, that's yet to be seen, but that's my best guess. Time will tell, and I hope to live long enough to see that whole house of cards crumbling down.

Yeah you're right he was clearly lying what was I thinking
Well, the thing is....there is no way to know for sure, but what is more likely? A disgruntled washout exaggerating, or an entire facility conspiring together over the course of two decades intentionally washing people out to keep the mythical overtime money coming?

Get real dude. Listen to what you're actually trying to imply. There is no conspiracy. It is a tough facility, but we were also getting a lot of garbage trainees, because the experienced people elsewhere didn't want to come to NY. It is the perfect catch 22 of staffing.
Do they do a lot of verbal coordination or something? Why do the areas have to be together?
Besides the verbal coordination, there is SHARED airspace between LGA and JFK, as well as between LGA and EWR, and those are flow dependent. Having the areas in separate facilities will make a logistical nightmare for coordinating those, not to mention that you will need to craft new LOA's that cover those N90 only SOP procedures. One of them being ILLEGAL as per the .65 (special use line course divergence separation between EWR 04R departures and LGA arrivals up/down the river). How they plan to craft an illegal procedure into a new LOA is something I've been waiting with a lot of anticipation.

In the past, while all 3 areas are under one roof, there is ONE OM at the desk in charge of managing that airspace and telling the areas "ok, JFK is going to 13's, so LGA is also going to 13, which means TEB shuts down, and EWR goes to alternate departures". This is just one example/scenario, but good luck having this happen smoothly when the areas are split. the EWR area in PHL may just tell to LGA "screw you, we're not shutting down our stuff so you can run yours". This is how we felt quite often, but we had no choice but comply because it was the one OPS manager in charge. Once you involve multiple personalities and facilities....trust me, it won't be pretty.

Then again, maybe this new FAA is a place where everyone gets along nicely, and sing cumbaya together on the landlines! :lol:
 
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Deuce

Trusted Contributor
Messages
123
The FAA has spent the last 10 years consolidating approaches and there are 15 more consolidations in the pipeline right now. This is the test run to see if everything runs smoothly before they bust the rest of the building up. They're sending ZSU to ZMA and SJU approach to RSW...the consolidations are only getting bigger. There are whispers of breaking up ZNY and sending the airspace to ZOB, ZDC, and ZBW because SWAP is the biggest crock of shit in the NAS.

As long as there are override lines, there's no reason the approach sectors can't be separated.
This is the opposite of a consolidation?
 

FlimFlam

Active Member
Messages
48
Well, the thing is....there is no way to know for sure, but what is more likely? A disgruntled washout exaggerating, or an entire facility conspiring together over the course of two decades intentionally washing people out to keep the mythical overtime money coming?
N90-EWR, there's obviously no conspiracy, but would you consider that sometimes being on the inside makes it hard to see how the culture is problematic for training? Hasn't there been a bunch of people over the years who washed out, then came back and made it in another area? Doesn't that means they had the talent but it wasn't properly developed? At least in those individual situations, that seems like evidence that those people could have been worked with a little more to get certified.
 

Peter Gibbons

Legendary Member
Messages
1,843
N90-EWR, there's obviously no conspiracy, but would you consider that sometimes being on the inside makes it hard to see how the culture is problematic for training? Hasn't there been a bunch of people over the years who washed out, then came back and made it in another area? Doesn't that means they had the talent but it wasn't properly developed? At least in those individual situations, that seems like evidence that those people could have been worked with a little more to get certified.
Having washed out of that building, I'll say this much.... it's a tough place to work, especially if you don't want to be there. I feel like the classroom training and Sims were better than anywhere else I've been to date, while some guys had a bit of a disgruntled controller combined with NY attitude, it certainly wasn't any worse than some other toxic ass facilities I've been at. overwhelmingly people were there if you had questions etc. I didn't see any overarching OT conspiracy to wash out trainees. Seemed to me like they really mostly wanted more bodies cause they were sick of decades of 6 day, 50 hour weeks.

The academy (when I went thru in 2013) did a pretty piss poor job of preparing you for n90, as the operation in my area was absolutely nothing like what you did in rtf/tsew at the time, and coming in there with prior military tower experience, but zero radar knowledge or experience was a huge huge hindrance. I feel like that's a tough place to learn the operation itself, much less how to do basic things at.

I wasn't sad to leave, as LI wasn't really my bag, even though I had roots in the area, and honestly I was in way way way over my head there, and I'm not afraid to admit that. I'm not interested in trying again, but if I was I think I'd have more success having a bit more faa experience, and hopefully if my current facility gets its act together with training, some actual radar experience sometime before I retire.

I think a lot of it is people making excuses for their own shortcomings, more than it is an OT scam. People aren't big enough to say "I couldn't hack it" and would rather make excuses.
 

DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
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1,769
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
Hasn't there been a bunch of people over the years who washed out, then came back and made it in another area? Doesn't that means they had the talent but it wasn't properly developed?

It’s surprising they made it after going somewhere slower to develop that talent? Or that maybe they were successful in a different area because……it was a different area? Not all areas are created equal.

There has to be some limit on the amount of time dedicated to “developing talent”. You have literally hundreds of hours per position in my area. If you can’t get checked out in departure in 240 hours, you’re not going to get checked out after 300 hours. And like I said in a previous post, with the crap foundation the Academy gives, I’m not going to use this traffic to teach you the methods of radar identification or the other basics that you should know before coming here (or anywhere really).
 
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N90-EWR

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
85
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
N90-EWR, there's obviously no conspiracy, but would you consider that sometimes being on the inside makes it hard to see how the culture is problematic for training? Hasn't there been a bunch of people over the years who washed out, then came back and made it in another area? Doesn't that means they had the talent but it wasn't properly developed? At least in those individual situations, that seems like evidence that those people could have been worked with a little more to get certified.

Oh, you're 100% correct there. I won't deny for one second that the culture is less than ideal, and that we have lost some good capable people because of it. What you mention is true. I've seen people that couldn't make it in the EWR area, but would had been capable of making it in Liberty or ISP get turned away. Huge waste of time and resources and very frustrating.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
6,747
It’s surprising they made it after going somewhere slower to develop that talent? Or that maybe they were successful in a different area because……it was a different area? Not all areas are created equal.

There has to be some limit on the amount of time dedicated to “developing talent”. You have literally hundreds of hours per position in my area. If you can’t get checked out in departure in 240 hours, you’re not going to get checked out after 300 hours. And like I said in a previous post, with the crap foundation the Academy gives, I’m not going to use this traffic to teach you the methods of radar identification or the other basics that you should know before coming here (or anywhere really).
I don’t know why faa facilities don’t try people in others areas. It should be an option if the facility thinks it could work for that individual. All facilities have easier areas and it would be way faster for someone already there to slide over and give it a try
 

DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
Messages
1,769
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
I don’t know why faa facilities don’t try people in others areas. It should be an option if the facility thinks it could work for that individual. All facilities have easier areas and it would be way faster for someone already there to slide over and give it a try

Because that would make it official that some areas are easier or harder and could make different pay for different areas a legitimate talking point
 

Peter Gibbons

Legendary Member
Messages
1,843
I don’t know why faa facilities don’t try people in others areas. It should be an option if the facility thinks it could work for that individual. All facilities have easier areas and it would be way faster for someone already there to slide over and give it a try
That is the one thing I will say. They could definitely do a better job of sticking people in areas they are more apt to be successful in. Example being myself, who may have had a better shot over in ISP, meanwhile they stuck a guy with boatloads of military and contract radar experience in ISP shortly after my arrival.

That said, I'm glad they didn't I'd be miserable stuck on Long Island. I've never been happy to fail at anything in my life, but you won't ever hear me be salty about washing out of N90, it was absolutely better for everything except my wallet, which honestly....with the cost of living and taxes there seems to me like it's a wash anyways.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
6,747
Because that would make it official that some areas are easier or harder and could make different pay for different areas a legitimate talking point
I see your point. All though treating areas differently could help some other things like NCEPT. But it would be a difficult thing to keep control of and make sure they don’t screw people over
 

32andBelow

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6,747
I'd definitely be against that collectively makes people get paid less, and everyone here should too. That sounds like a great management talking point for the future flm's in here.
Def against getting paid less. Interested in areas having a bit more autonomy if it’s at all possible.
 

Phillyman2633

Legendary Member
Messages
983
As for the "test run to see if everything runs smoothly" part, this is why I said what I said about them likely reversing this move down the line. It will NOT go smoothly! Consolidations elsewhere have little to no bearing on this. This is NY, and what happens there has significant repercussions to the entire NAS. When the airlines (and the flying public) start crying because of record delays, there will be enough pressure to bring the old status quo back.
"This is NY" is the attitude that played a very large part in creating the mess that started this ball rolling in the first place. The move will absolutely not go smoothly, but they will work out the issues as they have always done.

If a little public bitching about delays is all it took to effect change in the NAS, they would have blown up LGA 20 years ago and we would be at 100% staffing across the agency instead of clapping like idiots when we get to release one because we hit agency average.
 

DankVectorz

Legendary Member
FAA
Messages
1,769
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
The airlines are on board with it, or at least that’s what we’ve been told. They know it will hurt in the short term but as is the operation is going to be held together by a thread within a couple years anyway. They’re willing to take the short term hurt if it means long term stability.
 

N90-EWR

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
85
Facility
N90 New York Tracon
"This is NY" is the attitude that played a very large part in creating the mess that started this ball rolling in the first place. The move will absolutely not go smoothly, but they will work out the issues as they have always done.

If a little public bitching about delays is all it took to effect change in the NAS, they would have blown up LGA 20 years ago and we would be at 100% staffing across the agency instead of clapping like idiots when we get to release one because we hit agency average.
"work out the issues as they have always done"? hahaha, good luck with that!

:whistle:

The airlines are on board with it, or at least that’s what we’ve been told. They know it will hurt in the short term but as is the operation is going to be held together by a thread within a couple years anyway. They’re willing to take the short term hurt if it means long term stability.
I'm willing to bet that the people "at the airlines" making the decisions have no clue what they're getting themselves into with this move.
 
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