Shoot The Breeze

[32andBelow]

Streamlining the process should be a priority in our careers. Ya it’s absolutely sucks all the unforeseen delays we’ve had to go through, but the only thing we can do is make it better for the next line of trainees. I don’t want to be that controller that makes the trainee’s lives harder because we went through some act of God shit.

The best is the cpcs that tell us to fuck off and suck it up and then bitch when they can’t transfer like they can’t see the connection.

 

[mnsalty]

Serious question, what’s a boomer?

Damn troll got us good that time

 

[aaran34]

Oh

A boomer is someone, usually older but not necessarily an actual baby boomer, that is insufferably obtuse and close minded. Usually displays curmudgeonly behavior

The back in my day mentality is something a lot of boomers parrot, as well as the word entitlement because if the new guys aren't getting bent over like you did back in the day then they're entitled

Oh then I’m definitely a boomer.

 

[COWTOWN]

I remember when trainees were seen and not heard. They passed breaks to work busy traffic, they didn’t call in sick, they didn’t put in shift changes because 3rd swings were too inconvenient, they didn’t COMPLAIN about their pay. Good ole first post!

They still do that... gen y/z/a whatever it is now.

 

[CF]

A boomer is someone, usually older but not necessarily an actual baby boomer, that is insufferably obtuse and close minded. Usually displays curmudgeonly behavior

The back in my day mentality is something a lot of boomers parrot, as well as the word entitlement because if the new guys aren't getting bent over like you did back in the day then they're entitled

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Socrates

Basically the boomer mentality has been going on for thousands of years. Even I have begun to display boomer like tendencies towards people 10+ years younger than me, but then I catch myself because I know what it's like to be in their shoes and have to listen to that nonsense

Every generation talks shit about the ones that come after it. The silent generation talked shit about the boomers and the counterculture movement, boomers talk shit about millennials, some millennials talk shit about gen z. It's definitely fun sometimes but I wouldn't let it go beyond a joke, otherwise you're being a boomer

Damn Gen X forgotten again

 

[CaptainObvious]

Damn Gen X forgotten again

Probably because they suck. For real though, as much as it’s trendy to bag on and blame millennials, Gen X seems way worse on the lazy, do nothing, live at home forever, burnout front

 

[corn4ahead]

Thousands of current CPC’s went through OKC making 500-1000 a paycheck without COLA for housing. Thousands of current CPC’s had training delays. Thousands of current CPC’s checked out under the white book making a comparable salary to the current D2-D3 pay. It took me 4 years as a CPC to reach full pay. Hell, my level 11 CPC pay under the white book was less than my current trainees D3 pay at a 10. (side note: my trainee busted his ass 6-7 hours a day to get those d-side raises in before the training hold.)

But guess what? We didn’t bitch and moan about it, especially to CPC’s. We didn’t shit on NATCA because our entitlement wasn’t filled. We took our lumps training, we took out shit pay, we took our delays and made the best of it. I guess it’s hard for trainees to understand something so simple as that. I’m sorry for your lost wages.

This mindset is what completely destroys progress. While most of us sympathize with the BS that the White Book hires went through, we cannot let it paralyze the new generation.

What I have experienced with training is “well the training program is not as bad as it used to be! Just be happy it did take you 3 years like me.”

Does that make it a good training program? Likely not. Does it give the training staff an excuse to be lazy and not try to continually strive for an efficient training program? Absolutely.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Heard that ZDV had two cases. Wonder how that’ll impact training plans. I’d imagine the surge will keep things from progressing

 

[aaran34]

Leaving now fellas, this boomer/troll has to figure out if he’s had contact with the latest confirmed COVID case at the facility.

This mindset is what completely destroys progress. While most of us sympathize with the BS that the White Book hires went through, we cannot let it paralyze the new generation.

What I have experienced with training is “well the training program is not as bad as it used to be! Just be happy it did take you 3 years like me.”

Does that make it a good training program? Likely not. Does it give the training staff an excuse to be lazy and not try to continually strive for an efficient training program? Absolutely.

I’m not here to bash trainees for getting a raw deal with all these training delays. Many of which are pre Covid. I do not support hack ass training departments that constantly create more hurdles for trainees. I do not support piss poor managers that fail to provide adequate time to train. I guess I created an easy target for you guys to project your frustrations on.

We can talk about progress though: cola is now being paid out in OKC, CPC pay bands were fixed, D 1-4 pay raise increments were changed, veteran trainees can claim GI BILL during OJT. Progress has somewhat been made and much it from our very own bargaining unit.

My point is the thought process for some trainees on here to put CPC’s on blast because they think we just want to stay on 5/5 or 5/10 in complete disregard for the training delays. Well, there’s an epidemic right now. Facilities have been getting hit with it too. My facility was ATC zero last night for Covid cleanup. Who do you think has been putting in the time to train? To do their part? CPC’s.

My other point is all the NATCA bashing by trainees. Like I said, these are different times with covid so maybe it’s time to show even more patience before trainees go shitting on NATCA with all their problems. Maybe it’s time to contact local reps or RVP’s with these issues. Or shit, email the training manager with these concerns.

And my final asshole point, trainees used to be seen and not heard. At times it sucked but in the long run you were taken care of. We didn’t launch our complaints at everyone. I guess it’s acceptable in today’s climate for trainees to shit on CPC’s and NATCA. Excuse me for infringing on your rights. “Back in my day” it was CPC’s who shit on other CPC’s, NATCA, and management.

 

[ABACUS]

Probably in contention for dumbest post of the year.

Maybe if NATCA didn’t make me pay union dues while I was sitting upstairs on AG pay for 1.5 years I wouldn’t complain. I bet if okc trainees didn’t have to pay dues until they were certified, NATCA would change their tune real quick.

 

[DankVectorz]

This mindset is what completely destroys progress. While most of us sympathize with the BS that the White Book hires went through, we cannot let it paralyze the new generation.

What I have experienced with training is “well the training program is not as bad as it used to be! Just be happy it did take you 3 years like me.”

Does that make it a good training program? Likely not. Does it give the training staff an excuse to be lazy and not try to continually strive for an efficient training program? Absolutely.

the biggest problem as you may learn later is that training people fucking sucks and it completely saps whatever joy one might have in working traffic*. I’ll gladly trade working 6 days if it means I never have to train someone again. But when you have 2-3 trainees and every minute of position time is spent watching someone else it just kills me.

*there are some people who genuinely enjoy training people. If you’re a trainee find that person.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Leaving now fellas, this boomer/troll has to figure out if he’s had contact with the latest confirmed COVID case at the facility.

I’m not here to bash trainees for getting a raw deal with all these training delays. Many of which are pre Covid. I do not support hack ass training departments that constantly create more hurdles for trainees. I do not support piss poor managers that fail to provide adequate time to train. I guess I created an easy target for you guys to project your frustrations on.

We can talk about progress though: cola is now being paid out in OKC, CPC pay bands were fixed, D 1-4 pay raise increments were changed, veteran trainees can claim GI BILL during OJT. Progress has somewhat been made and much it from our very own bargaining unit.

My point is the thought process for some trainees on here to put CPC’s on blast because they think we just want to stay on 5/5 or 5/10 in complete disregard for the training delays. Well, there’s an epidemic right now. Facilities have been getting hit with it too. My facility was ATC zero last night for Covid cleanup. Who do you think has been putting in the time to train? To do their part? CPC’s.

My other point is all the NATCA bashing by trainees. Like I said, these are different times with covid so maybe it’s time to show even more patience before trainees go shitting on NATCA with all their problems. Maybe it’s time to contact local reps or RVP’s with these issues. Or shit, email the training manager with these concerns.

And my final asshole point, trainees used to be seen and not heard. At times it sucked but in the long run you were taken care of. We didn’t launch our complaints at everyone. I guess it’s acceptable in today’s climate for trainees to shit on CPC’s and NATCA. Excuse me for infringing on your rights. “Back in my day” it was CPC’s who shit on other CPC’s, NATCA, and management.

To be fair, a lot of trainees right now have done “the right things”. In the books, wait their turn, show they want to train. Its like CPCs want all that, but then complain about them clamoring time train. Can’t be both ways. I work with plenty of people that are complaining about their lack of this differential or not having their bid schedule. Don’t you think that’s annoying for trainees to hear all the time? Especially the essential ones that are forced to work the same areas and traffic as the CPCs but being paid far less and with no relief on it in sight. It’s extremely frustrating for them to get no info other than a one sentence blurb in national or regional emails. All the defenders come out with “well what do you want them to say, no updates?” Guess what, National is updating everyone on literally every other aspect of their response to the situation. Keeping people in the loop would settle a lot of discord. Like the stuff that Stinger posted from the telecon. Obviously there’s been some discussions and recommendations from the workgroup. All the people complaining are asking for is the union that they pay the same percentage as the CPCs provide them with some of this info. A simple “the workgroup met and had these recommendations, we’re examining how to implement these, we’ll provide updates as they come in because we understand this an unprecedented and stressful time, and NATCA is here to help you get back to training safely and effectively” would be a welcome outreach to the trainees. Some of the stuff floated out here in regards to keeping CPCs on their schedules and furloughs, and all the shit about trainees just being a bargaining chip starts to seem more and more valid. It seems that NATCA couldn’t give a shit about a large portion of their dues paying members, so excuse them for being upset and voicing it.

 

[Horny4Vectors]

the biggest problem as you may learn later is that training people fucking sucks and it completely saps whatever joy one might have in working traffic*. I’ll gladly trade working 6 days if it means I never have to train someone again. But when you have 2-3 trainees and every minute of position time is spent watching someone else it just kills me.

*there are some people who genuinely enjoy training people. If you’re a trainee find that person.

*tear drops onto page of diary* 7/9/20 Well, I guess today is the day I learn Dank will never train me

 

[corn4ahead]

the biggest problem as you may learn later is that training people fucking sucks and it completely saps whatever joy one might have in working traffic*. I’ll gladly trade working 6 days if it means I never have to train someone again. But when you have 2-3 trainees and every minute of position time is spent watching someone else it just kills me.

*there are some people who genuinely enjoy training people. If you’re a trainee find that person.

I have been an OJTI for a few years now, so I definitely understand. My issues are not with actively training on live traffic. My issues are the artificially long processes to even get to actively training on live traffic. In most cases, once actual training occurs, certifications follow relatively quickly.

Many people have to wait months, if not years to hit the floor. And once they do get to classroom, it’s the infamous clicking through Power Point slides going over wake turbulence separation and the methods of radar identification that should have been taught in the academy or from previous facility.

And don’t even get me started with “self-study” time.

 

[the inquirer]

We had an area in the building that pushed a few trainees through the lab using cpc remote pilots and running the lab on saturdays. That area rep put in the work to organize it all and it went great for the trainees.
Having said this, there are ways to not just sit around and wait but try to solve the training issues. That area is one of the better staffed and better check out rate in the building.

 

[Phillytroll69]

How long did it take you to certify?

How long is it taking now?

How long should you be seen and not heard?

I mean washing your trainers car and doing the food runs and dealing with some shit talking for 6mo to a year isn't a big deal.
When are the most recent hires starting on the floor at your facility? What are the rumors at n90 from that other post? shit even our tower trainees have to weeks or months to drive to the place with the sim, then spend a ton of time waiting for traffic. Without the shutdown, without the pandemic, there's more hoops to jump through.
To the boomers just answer the questions above, how long for you to checkout and what's that average time before covid?

 

[aaran34]

To be fair, a lot of trainees right now have done “the right things”. In the books, wait their turn, show they want to train. Its like CPCs want all that, but then complain about them clamoring time train. Can’t be both ways. I work with plenty of people that are complaining about their lack of this differential or not having their bid schedule. Don’t you think that’s annoying for trainees to hear all the time? Especially the essential ones that are forced to work the same areas and traffic as the CPCs but being paid far less and with no relief on it in sight. It’s extremely frustrating for them to get no info other than a one sentence blurb in national or regional emails. All the defenders come out with “well what do you want them to say, no updates?” Guess what, National is updating everyone on literally every other aspect of their response to the situation. Keeping people in the loop would settle a lot of discord. Like the stuff that Stinger posted from the telecon. Obviously there’s been some discussions and recommendations from the workgroup. All the people complaining are asking for is the union that they pay the same percentage as the CPCs provide them with some of this info. A simple “the workgroup met and had these recommendations, we’re examining how to implement these, we’ll provide updates as they come in because we understand this an unprecedented and stressful time, and NATCA is here to help you get back to training safely and effectively” would be a welcome outreach to the trainees. Some of the stuff floated out here in regards to keeping CPCs on their schedules and furloughs, and all the shit about trainees just being a bargaining chip starts to seem more and more valid. It seems that NATCA couldn’t give a shit about a large portion of their dues paying members, so excuse them for being upset and voicing it.

I get it, there needs to be more communication from local/national NATCA in regards to training. I still suggest hitting up your reps or RVP’s if you can’t get any updates. Put the pressure on them to find answers.

I also get that most trainees are hard working people just looking to certify. I’ve put in the time to train for 10 straight years, I’ve seen it. What I do not understand is trainees projecting their frustration on CPC’s because of our lavish 5/10 or 5/5 schedule. It was created for a reason, sure it sucks but I’ll be damned if we’re gonna get shit from trainees because of it.

 

[Phillytroll69]

Oh and from what I've seen the union is the only one trying to at least get a system in place I think the FAA would let you get clearance delivery or whatever flight data and just forget about you

 

[mnsalty]

Oh and from what I've seen the union is the only one trying to at least get a system in place I think the FAA would let you get clearance delivery or whatever flight data and just forget about you

what’s your reason for thinking this ? Seems to me the FAA is wanting to get things going and natca is pushing “safety of CPCs.” Note: I’m not saying don’t keep CPCs safe, only that it’s the impression I get.

 

[32andBelow]

I get it, there needs to be more communication from local/national NATCA in regards to training. I still suggest hitting up your reps or RVP’s if you can’t get any updates. Put the pressure on them to find answers.

I also get that most trainees are hard working people just looking to certify. I’ve put in the time to train for 10 straight years, I’ve seen it. What I do not understand is trainees projecting their frustration on CPC’s because of our lavish 5/10 or 5/5 schedule. It was created for a reason, sure it sucks but I’ll be damned if we’re gonna get shit from trainees because of it.

The fact that they can’t see on their own that 25% of the Union is in this situation and provide information is concerning.