Tower Ops Per CPC 2023

[ajmezz]

At least where I’m at, it’s not “cleared for the option” all day. It’s very very busy sequencing aircraft all day long with wildly different speeds, pilot skill levels, etc. I personally made the case at CNO because we are far and away #1 in ops per controller in the Southern California region. Our target number is less than a level 5 tower like SMO, but we work 5 times the traffic. Nothing ever gets done about it. That’s the main reason for bringing it up, maybe some metric could be put in place to help places heavily understaffed.. Use this formula to see which places are well outside the norm to target more staffing.

Did your rep/atm get the cpc number increased for the crwg stuff?

 

[Deuce]

I think one of the things not taken into account is the hours a facility is open because a 24/7 facility with 100k ops is half as busy as a facility open 12 hours a day with 100k ops given they have the same number of CPCs.

tldr; the higher the number in the final column, the more ops every CPC did per hour their facility was open, the lower the number the number the less ops every CPC did per hour their facility was open

This is borderline autistic but stay with me. I took all the facilities in the Cleveland, Chicago, Indianapolis, and Minneapolis districts (basically the entire Great Lakes region) and determined how many hours they were open for the year. I even took into account some oddball facilities that have different hours for different months or days of the week so it should be fairly accurate. If a facility was an up/down, I doubled the hours open so it would be on par with the tower only/TRACON only facilities (if you don’t think that’s fair then just ignore the up/downs). I then divided the total number of operations by the number of hours open to get the average number of ops per hours open (a more accurate representation of how busy a facility is than ops/year). I went through the priority placement tool for each month of 2023 and took the average off all the months for each facility for a more accurate representation of average CPCs for the entire year. I then took the ops/hour open number and divided it by the average CPC number to get a final number showing the average ops per hour open per CPC.

This doesn’t take account for 114s, parental leave, or any other things that hurt your staffing but don’t show up on the PPT.

Are you actually under the impression that large 24/7 facilities are just as busy on the midnights as during the regular shifts? You really think this is a good metric? Wtf

The lengths you guys are going to on these threads is wild. Everyone's facilities have challenges and everyone should get a raise. We're all responsible for a huge number of lives. But coming up with some random cherry picked lab created specific stat line that makes your facility seem like lax or n90 or c90 or whatever is just hilarious

 

[EightTwoSierra]

Are you actually under the impression that large 24/7 facilities are just as busy on the midnights as during the regular shifts? You really think this is a good metric? Wtf

The lengths you guys are going to on these threads is wild. Everyone's facilities have challenges and everyone should get a raise. We're all responsible for a huge number of lives. But coming up with some random cherry picked lab created specific stat line that makes your facility seem like lax or n90 or c90 or whatever is just hilarious

Not trying to make my facility like LAX. I get the challenge there is huge. But we shouldn’t be worse off than a VNY. Or a BUR. Or a LGB. Everyone gets a raise I agree. I’d just like to get some help from the FAA and staff accordingly. They tell us “you can’t have more staffing until you are an 8”, but we gotta work 8 traffic on level 5 staffing before they help. All im arguing is that fact.

 

[A2J]

Not trying to make my facility like LAX. I get the challenge there is huge. But we shouldn’t be worse off than a VNY. Or a BUR. Or a LGB. Everyone gets a raise I agree. I’d just like to get some help from the FAA and staff accordingly. They tell us “you can’t have more staffing until you are an 8”, but we gotta work 8 traffic on level 5 staffing before they help. All im arguing is that fact.

Down here at Gillespie our target is 15 and there were murmurs of raising it to 18. We definitely think its wild y'all only got 11 up in Chino.

How's the OT? Also, what is your minimum CPC number to staff for the day?

 

[Delta_KVTA]

Are you actually under the impression that large 24/7 facilities are just as busy on the midnights as during the regular shifts? You really think this is a good metric? Wtf

The lengths you guys are going to on these threads is wild. Everyone's facilities have challenges and everyone should get a raise. We're all responsible for a huge number of lives. But coming up with some random cherry picked lab created specific stat line that makes your facility seem like lax or n90 or c90 or whatever is just hilarious

Show me where I said that. Don’t put words in my mouth. GFK works the same amount of traffic as DTW but is only open 75% of the hours DTW is, meaning they work more ops per hour, meaning they are busier. If you’re going to count the ops 24/7 facilities work during the mid shift, then we’re going to account for the hours that facility is open to be equitable. LOU had about 10k less ops than DPA, but had nearly 3300 less hours this year to get their count, so they are a generally busier facility. I’m not saying the big facilities don’t push way more tin overall or are less deserving of a raise (we all deserve one), but this thread is about ops worked per CPC, and accounting for the hours a facility is open is an important and overlooked factor. Obviously controllers at C90 and LAX work way harder than some level 5, absolutely nobody is making that claim

 

[TimShady]

Show me where I said that. Don’t put words in my mouth. GFK works the same amount of traffic as DTW but is only open 75% of the hours DTW is, meaning they work more ops per hour, meaning they are busier. If you’re going to count the ops 24/7 facilities work during the mid shift, then we’re going to account for the hours that facility is open to be equitable. LOU had about 10k less ops than DPA, but had nearly 3300 less hours this year to get their count, so they are a generally busier facility. I’m not saying the big facilities don’t push way more tin overall or are less deserving of a raise (we all deserve one), but this thread is about ops worked per CPC, and accounting for the hours a facility is open is an important and overlooked factor. Obviously controllers at C90 and LAX work way harder than some level 5, absolutely nobody is making that claim

You’re proving his point. With few exceptions traffic on the midnight shift is close to none. You’re arguing certain facilities are busier because they work the same number in fewer hours but less than 1% of the traffic is overnight anyway so it barely makes a difference. You mentioned DPA, they do legit like 4 ops overnight.

 

[fivebyfive]

You’re proving his point. With few exceptions traffic on the midnight shift is close to none. You’re arguing certain facilities are busier because they work the same number in fewer hours but less than 1% of the traffic is overnight anyway so it barely makes a difference. You mentioned DPA, they do legit like 4 ops overnight.

Fun fact. The Airport Authority at DPA pays the FAA to staff controllers during the midnight shift for those 4 ops. Otherwise it would not be 24/7.

OPs/CPC is a non-starter when negotiating or justifying pay. You always how to think how people will game the system (which they will)
OPs/CPC as a metric of pay would encourage facilities to get rid of operational positions, lower their staffing numbers, and/or not certify controllers.

 

[boots]

I doubt this person complaining about ops knows how TCI works and is calculated if they are bitching about midnight ops.

 

[BrocolliRob]

lol the TCI isn’t perfect, but it is literally a metric designed for this very purpose. People in here trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Not trying to make my facility like LAX. I get the challenge there is huge. But we shouldn’t be worse off than a VNY. Or a BUR. Or a LGB. Everyone gets a raise I agree. I’d just like to get some help from the FAA and staff accordingly. They tell us “you can’t have more staffing until you are an 8”, but we gotta work 8 traffic on level 5 staffing before they help. All im arguing is that fact.

CNO is not busier or more complex than VNY. Just stop.

 

[CF]

Not trying to make my facility like LAX. I get the challenge there is huge. But we shouldn’t be worse off than a VNY. Or a BUR. Or a LGB. Everyone gets a raise I agree. I’d just like to get some help from the FAA and staff accordingly. They tell us “you can’t have more staffing until you are an 8”, but we gotta work 8 traffic on level 5 staffing before they help. All im arguing is that fact.

lol you think that CNO should be the same level as facilities that do 100k more a year and are more complex?

 

[CaptainObvious]

lol you think that CNO should be the same level as facilities that do 100k more a year and are more complex?

He thinks he runs more traffic than all the centers so yeah

 

[Deuce]

lol you think that CNO should be the same level as facilities that do 100k more a year and are more complex?

Have you considered (ops/hour/chair)*staff specialists? It's a level 17 bro

 

[EightTwoSierra]

lol you think that CNO should be the same level as facilities that do 100k more a year and are more complex?

I think you missed the point I’m trying to make. I’m not asking for a CPC target of 24 like van nuys. Our CPC target is 11.. We have 8 CPCs active. Burbank who is also a level 7 has a target of 22… I’m trying to point out that we are understaffed by the ops per controller as show on that list. I’m not arguing we are more complex than VNY or LGB or LAX. Heck we have a lower target number than SMO which is a 5… Someone from SEE mentioned they have a target of 15, well above us.

 

[EightTwoSierra]

Down here at Gillespie our target is 15 and there were murmurs of raising it to 18. We definitely think its wild y'all only got 11 up in Chino.

How's the OT? Also, what is your minimum CPC number to staff for the day?

I worked 550 hours of OT last year. Most guys here worked around that. We try to staff 6 a day, OT scheduled almost every day. Zero spot leave approved. We currently have 8 CPCs with another medically DQd probably for good.

Down here at Gillespie our target is 15 and there were murmurs of raising it to 18. We definitely think it’s wild y'all only got 11 up in Chino.

How's the OT? Also, what is your minimum CPC number to staff for the day?

 

[A2J]

I worked 550 hours of OT last year. Most guys here worked around that. We try to staff 6 a day, OT scheduled almost every day. Zero spot leave approved. We currently have 8 CPCs with another medically DQd probably for good.

We run 7 per day. 12 CPC with 3 in training. 550 is insane. Highest here was in the 130’s

 

[EightTwoSierra]

We run 7 per day. 12 CPC with 3 in training. 550 is insane. Highest here was in the 130’s

Yeah 7 would be a fantastic, we just don’t have the bodies for it. We struggle to keep 6 daily, if anyone bangs there is nobody to call… I am projecting 450 hours of OT this year since it’s scheduled weekly plus holdovers.

We run 7 per day. 12 CPC with 3 in training. 550 is insane. Highest here was in the 130’s

 

[hpwjuicebox]

What a joke that controllers are stuck at low level towers working 500 hours of OT with a shittier pension and tsp match than their colleagues who randomly got assigned a different track for OKC.

 

[Dolan]

CNO is not busier or more complex than VNY. Just stop.

On the other hand if you're given the choice of being one of vny's 24 cpcs or cno's 11 (and with a lower success rate) you'd be absolutely pants on head retarded to pick cno. You understand that, right?

 

[CF]

I think you missed the point I’m trying to make. I’m not asking for a CPC target of 24 like van nuys. Our CPC target is 11.. We have 8 CPCs active. Burbank who is also a level 7 has a target of 22… I’m trying to point out that we are understaffed by the ops per controller as show on that list. I’m not arguing we are more complex than VNY or LGB or LAX. Heck we have a lower target number than SMO which is a 5… Someone from SEE mentioned they have a target of 15, well above us.

Alright that makes more sense. Honestly can’t argue with having a few more bodies anywhere. And 11 does seem low even if you only staff 1 local.