September (Q4) 2019

I understand how TCI is calculated. All the facilities have been consolidated to AZO since the beginning of June. Please look at their TCI numbers since then, it doesn't look promising. They barely got over the breakpoint in August for a level 7. You do not need to wait a full year to see where this is going. You think they'll wait a full year to start downgrading all the new tower only facilities so they can get an accurate idea of the TCIs? They won't, trust me I was on the countless telecons outlining the process and timeline.
So AZO is only going from a 6 to a 7?
 
There was no paved path before that I’m aware of. The managers usually had the say in who they selected. Some go off of experience (higher facility etc) and some chose to go off of feeder facilities in the area.

But I will agree. I like the idea of a 3 level cap and everyone starts at a 7 or below. And yes I realize some controllers at level 5s can be exceptional. Doesn’t change anything. Do your time and work your way up.

Why should level 6 Joe “have to wait his time” to go to a center? They pick people up off the street. Plus now days some vets have more ATC time than you. Dumb.
 
Yes, and checkout the upgrade list/numbers and see if AZO is going to be a level 8. They barely are running 7 numbers and it's summer. Wait till winter hits. I'm really surprised more people aren't talking about this consolidation failure!
You can work an airplane across the whole state on MI, 25 traffic calls and requests...counts for one op. I was told over and over from both sides using the "conservative numbers", it should be a level 8. Where does it stop? Do we just consolidated every 7 and below up/down and have one national level 5 or 6 radar facility in the middle of nowhere. And for those that think their facility won't be touch because you're "busy", it's got nothing to do with your traffic count. It's all about dollars and cents. Wait until your facility is old and needs upgraded and see if your "busy" traffic saves your facility.
Nice. I’m at LAN so I know exactly what you’re talking about.
 
Why should level 6 Joe “have to wait his time” to go to a center? They pick people up off the street. Plus now days some vets have more ATC time than you. Dumb.
Good question. Why should Billy Bobby and Janie get skipped when they have more time in the agency and more FAA experience on their resume than Joe? Just because joe has knee pads and knows someone there?

It goes both ways and here is no perfect answer. They could consider lower level applicants after higher levels have been picked through, idk. Don’t you think long time employees should be rewarded over new hire Joe?
 
So AZO is only going from a 6 to a 7?
I don't know where they'll end up but they didn't run 7 numbers in June or July. August was the first month they ran 7 numbers and they barely made that. The point I was making was three months in, they're closer to looking like a 6 than an 8.
 
It goes both ways and here is no perfect answer. They could consider lower level applicants after higher levels have been picked through, idk. Don’t you think long time employees should be rewarded over new hire Joe?
No. The best controllers should get to move up. Time in the agency shouldn't matter. In an ideal world there should be a legitimate way to rank controller performance, potential and capability. If you want to move up make yourself more desirable. Don't just stomp your feet and whine because you've got more time in and therefore automatically deserve to get to move. Make yourself a better candidate.

We however do not live in an ideal world.
 
No. The best controllers should get to move up. Time in the agency shouldn't matter. In an ideal world there should be a legitimate way to rank controller performance, potential and capability. If you want to move up make yourself more desirable. Don't just stomp your feet and whine because you've got more time in and therefore automatically deserve to get to move. Make yourself a better candidate.

We however do not live in an ideal world.

Absolutely nothing about the current system moves the best controller. They don’t even care if you add up your points on the rating of ATC form. It’s all a who you know game and whether you can be released. Which is mostly low levels since they get all the new hires.
 
What exactly do people imagine happens if there's a mass Exodus from the union? The agency decides to let more people move? How does that make any sense?? If there's no union fighting for you, you think the agency suddenly gives everyone what they want? Before you go swinging your anger around why don't you all take a second to actually think about what your plan is. You're going to give the only side negotiating on your behalf less weight?

Yeah. The situation sucks for a lot of people.
But how do people think this is the unions fault? You act like whatever happens is exactly what they wanted. Find someone that's actually part of negotiations and talk to them. Do people legitimately believe NATCA wanted to restrict movement like this? It's funny how you can have one guy on this site single handedly chip and erode at logic and reasoning, and whip everyone into a completely misguided frenzy. It's eerily similar of our political climate.

The FAA wants no CPC-ITs only CPCs. The number of people who want to transfer and can't sucks balls, but the 70+ people who just had their lives change have the NATCA members negotiating on their behalf to thank.
 
I don't know where they'll end up but they didn't run 7 numbers in June or July. August was the first month they ran 7 numbers and they barely made that. The point I was making was three months in, they're closer to looking like a 6 than an 8.

WOW. That is pretty mind blowing. If they stay a 6 there is going to be a lot of very disappointed people there. I think it shows that the formula is flawed though. The math is the math, but I think its fair to say the formula could be tweaked. Especially if it was to the good for facilities upgrading.

What exactly do people imagine happens if there's a mass Exodus from the union? The agency decides to let more people move? How does that make any sense?? If there's no union fighting for you, you think the agency suddenly gives everyone what they want? Before you go swinging your anger around why don't you all take a second to actually think about what your plan is. You're going to give the only side negotiating on your behalf less weight?


I believe the idea would be if people quit, that would force the Union to find a looking glass and respond to what the people are unhappy with? I think there is a general idea that the powers that be are very aloof and don't realize just how important and all consuming the desire to move up or out is at MSOT facilities. I think the sentiment is generally true. The dues basically go to the big boy facilities to do big boy things.
 
WOW. That is pretty mind blowing. If they stay a 6 there is going to be a lot of very disappointed people there. I think it shows that the formula is flawed though. The math is the math, but I think its fair to say the formula could be tweaked. Especially if it was to the good for facilities upgrading.

The thing about it is that NATCA and the FAA, to and extent, try to sell the 804 consolidations as a good thing for the gaining facilities. (i.e. CLE, BUF, AZO).

But in reality, the controllers already at those facilities get hardly anything. Cool, two 1% cash bonuses, NOT added to your base. And what's worse, is the new CPC target numbers are so astronomically high, that the chances of ERRing after the 1-3 years of getting EVERYONE certifying on EVERYTHING, are very slim.

So those controllers have to go through all the training of a new facility/s (sector/s?) and have little incentive to do so. The only incentives are to hopefully be eligible to ERR to somewhere in the next 5 years and to hopefully get that facility upgrade.
 
The thing about it is that NATCA and the FAA, to and extent, try to sell the 804 consolidations as a good thing for the gaining facilities. (i.e. CLE, BUF, AZO).

True. Neither of those 3 facilities are anywhere close to leveling up after taking on full extra Tracons. Its pretty amazing. I think there is a natural assumption that if you assume gigantic airspace and close down TRACONs, it is inevitable you'd reap some benefit from that. Has not been the case for those 3. I'm still shocked about AZO, I blindly assumed theyd be an easy 8.
 
True. Neither of those 3 facilities are anywhere close to leveling up after taking on full extra Tracons. Its pretty amazing. I think there is a natural assumption that if you assume gigantic airspace and close down TRACONs, it is inevitable you'd reap some benefit from that. Has not been the case for those 3. I'm still shocked about AZO, I blindly assumed theyd be an easy 8.

Well CLE should be close. Cutover just happened on Sept 22. Either way. It's gooing to be very, very close.
 
Well CLE should be close. Cutover just happened on Sept 22. Either way. It's gooing to be very, very close.
I don't think it will be that close. They were still way below CVG and IND on numbers in August. Must be nice to have a Bravo.
 
What exactly do people imagine happens if there's a mass Exodus from the union? The agency decides to let more people move? How does that make any sense?? If there's no union fighting for you, you think the agency suddenly gives everyone what they want? Before you go swinging your anger around why don't you all take a second to actually think about what your plan is. You're going to give the only side negotiating on your behalf less weight?

Yeah. The situation sucks for a lot of people.
But how do people think this is the unions fault? You act like whatever happens is exactly what they wanted. Find someone that's actually part of negotiations and talk to them. Do people legitimately believe NATCA wanted to restrict movement like this? It's funny how you can have one guy on this site single handedly chip and erode at logic and reasoning, and whip everyone into a completely misguided frenzy. It's eerily similar of our political climate.

The FAA wants no CPC-ITs only CPCs. The number of people who want to transfer and can't sucks balls, but the 70+ people who just had their lives change have the NATCA members negotiating on their behalf to thank.
Maybe the union will realize they represent more than just “the union”, and realize most of the members MORE than 49% are getting screwed by the co-management stance the “union” is. I feel that they don’t represent me anymore, and I am leaving.

The union thinks of itself as an entity now, trying justify its life, rather than justify its being.
 
Maybe the union will realize they represent more than just “the union”, and realize most of the members MORE than 49% are getting screwed by the co-management stance the “union” is. I feel that they don’t represent me anymore, and I am leaving.

The union thinks of itself as an entity now, trying justify its life, rather than justify its being.

Don’t worry, they are already replacing us with contract towers! ?
 
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