September (Q4) 2019

Djfury05

Member
FAA
Messages
31
Facility
A80 Atlanta Tracon
I know I'm just shouting into the void and there are alot of pissed off people, but I'm real annoyed that the agency effectively eliminated the former path to a level 12 facility. I moved from a small tower to a mid-level tower to gain the experience to move up to a 12. Instead, I'm getting passed over by people from level 5 towers. They'll talk to as many planes in a shift that they might in a year. I don't think that's fair to anyone and I don't think it is logical in any way you look at it. Training success rates are going to continue to suck as long as NCEPT does this trash.
Don't worry, it wasn't all for nothing. Those who came from the 5's straight to the 12's will be the ones washing out and going into the NEST while you will be getting certified.

I called Andrew Lebovidge out on this right to his face a couple years ago and he didn't have an answer but only "we'll have to look at the data." Well the data says it shouldn't be happening yet they continue to allow it. His claim to fame is "Oh but look at how many movements we've had since the inception of NCEPT!" Doesn't really matter when they're moving again in less than 2 years because they can't make it at the 12 and we're no closer to an overall increase in number of total CPC's... Who would've thought...
 

Maintainvfr

Forum Sage
Messages
430
Maybe the union will realize they represent more than just “the union”, and realize most of the members MORE than 49% are getting screwed by the co-management stance the “union” is. I feel that they don’t represent me anymore, and I am leaving.

The union thinks of itself as an entity now, trying justify its life, rather than justify its being.
Again, I hear what you're saying and understand that a lot of people are in a bad position. The idea that it's because of NATCA or that NATCA has the power to just change the policy to exactly what it wants is absurd. A negotiation is a negotiation.
 

XRadar

Member
FAA
Messages
19
Facility
SAT San Antonio Tower
Again, I hear what you're saying and understand that a lot of people are in a bad position. The idea that it's because of NATCA or that NATCA has the power to just change the policy to exactly what it wants is absurd. A negotiation is a negotiation.
And they negotiated for themselves and what the FAA wants, they did nothing for the majority. They are co-managing
 

Alpha_bravo2

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
195
Facility
PNS Pensacola Tower
Don't worry, it wasn't all for nothing. Those who came from the 5's straight to the 12's will be the ones washing out and going into the NEST while you will be getting certified.

I called Andrew Lebovidge out on this right to his face a couple years ago and he didn't have an answer but only "we'll have to look at the data." Well the data says it shouldn't be happening yet they continue to allow it. His claim to fame is "Oh but look at how many movements we've had since the inception of NCEPT!" Doesn't really matter when they're moving again in less than 2 years because they can't make it at the 12 and we're no closer to an overall increase in number of total CPC's... Who would've thought...
Where are these people washing out at, are they going from up downs to large tracons or centers or tower only.

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable going to a large tracon or center, but I feel like I wouldn't have an issue at a tower only. I have plugged in at ATL, and CLT and nothing made me think it wasnt anything I could handle.
Instead of just a blanket level cap they should take other things into consideration like type of traffic worked (not all low level towers or up downs only work ga traffic), complexity... Etc ( just because it's a lower level doesn't mean it's not complex).
 

Djfury05

Member
FAA
Messages
31
Facility
A80 Atlanta Tracon
Where are these people washing out at, are they going from up downs to large tracons or centers or tower only.

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable going to a large tracon or center, but I feel like I wouldn't have an issue at a tower only. I have plugged in at ATL, and CLT and nothing made me think it wasnt anything I could handle.
Instead of just a blanket level cap they should take other things into consideration like type of traffic worked (not all low level towers or up downs only work ga traffic), complexity... Etc ( just because it's a lower level doesn't mean it's not complex).
In general if you've only worked tower only or tower with a basic radar qual you have no business getting selected to a 12 tracon only. Yet it keeps happening. Sure, some make it, but at what cost? Extra hours from the TRB? Standards being lowered etc.

What you're asking for will never happen. They'll never look at things like that under a microscope. Only the gains and losses to staffing. We're all just a number to them, nothing more nothing less.
 
Messages
18
I don't disagree with the stance against what NATCA has agreed to. But I also don't agree that quitting the union is the right response. I wonder how many of the keyboard warriors have spoken to their RVP about how they feel directly and on a regular basis.

I do have concerns though that NATCA has went too far into collaboration with the agency. I am absolutely sure NCEPT and the Training Initiative were purely the agency's ideas in which the union has steered them into a more favorable direction for the workforce. However, were we better off outright opposing terrible ideas instead of meeting in the middle and still working with shitty ideas?
 

Alpha_bravo2

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
195
Facility
PNS Pensacola Tower
In general if you've only worked tower only or tower with a basic radar qual you have no business getting selected to a 12 tracon only. Yet it keeps happening. Sure, some make it, but at what cost? Extra hours from the TRB? Standards being lowered etc.

What you're asking for will never happen. They'll never look at things like that under a microscope. Only the gains and losses to staffing. We're all just a number to them, nothing more nothing less.
What about the flip side what makes a level 12 center controller more apt to pass at a level 12 tower than a person that's worked at a 6, 7, or 8 tower? Sure they've worked congested frequencies but they still have to go in an learn basic tower stuff that puts them behind the ball.

Im aware there's no way they will actually look at an individuals experience, as it's just a numbers game. But putting a level cap on movements won't completely solve the problem either like some think it will.

Also the issues of TRBs, change of standards aren't just happening when us lowly controllers are trying to hang with the real controllers. You guys suck just as bad at sequencing three planes in the pattern, as I would trying to work the final at ATL.
 
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Djfury05

Member
FAA
Messages
31
Facility
A80 Atlanta Tracon
What about the flip side what makes a level 12 center controller more apt to pass at a level 12 tower than a person that's worked at a 6, 7, or 8 tower? Sure they've worked congested frequencies but

Im aware there's no way they will actually look at an individuals experience, as it's just a numbers game. But putting a level cap on movements won't completely solve the problem either like some think it will.
It doesn't. The point is you should stay in your lane and work your way up if you want to have the highest chance of success both for yourself and the agency. But that's just not the way its done anymore.

I'm a fan of putting a level cap on it. I made a spreadsheet a couple years ago that tracked all the movement since NCEPT's inception and IIRC it showed that 70% or so of 4/5/6 transfers skipped right over 7/8/9's and went to 10/11/12's. There was hardly any movement from the 7/8/9's because they weren't getting the transfers they needed to release someone and at the time the agency wasn't sending academy grads there either. It just wasn't an efficient method of producing overall success to the agency. Here we are a few years later and we're no better off than when NCEPT began.
 

CK

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
98
Facility
AFW Alliance Tower
1) place people near where they want. On my bid alone I was asked three times through the process and got the opposite coast.

2) the idea of a priority list is good. How it's ran now vs who needs the most bodies and trickle down order, whatever, just keep a priority list.

3) NATCA and the Agency have already "agreed" to or at least set facility numbers. Stick with that.

4) ERR packages should remain active for 4 NCEPT cycles. With how drastic they can change from every other month to every quarter, to holy crap shutdown 2020. Every 4 ncepts redo paperwork.

5) set a standard what is NATCA and the Agency "comfortable" with staffing wise to release people. 80%? Leave it 85%? Don't care, set something and leave it.

6) the 30% cpc-it/dev to controller ratio is a mess. Have NATCA and "The agency" on a LOCAL LEVEL tell NCEPT realistically how many new arrivals it can handle, and when. (based upon cat 1/2 releases) were sort of swamped now but in three months we can see needing 4 more. So maybe 1 cat 1 arrival and the rest cat 2, etc. Edit: it's generic enough to cover national, not so rigid that it doesn't work. No one knows your fac better than you. Get the info from the source. Lock the number of inbounds that local agreed to the same time SWB gets locked before the pannel.

7) if said facility can't routinely meet it's training requirement due to too many in training, now we have a training backlog and we slow down arrivals to that facility.

8) staff level 9 and below facs to 120%, not 100%. That should keep the training your replacement/revolving door going to train the new hires, allowing more of the facility to move up and out. Staffing a level 6 to 100%, 15 CPC target, two releases are dramatic. Give a better buffer.

9) Don't make going supe the only way out of a facility.

10) no one wants to work with a **** head, sorry not sorry. Networking is a reality in almost every job. Put in work, get rewarded.

From
-Guy at a 6 who's been able to be released for 2 years and hasn't left, isn't a **** head, put in work and newtowrked.

Also, for everyone who says being a FacRep is an auto out, no it's not. 🤷‍♂️🧐
 
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GMX

Trusted Contributor
Messages
184
The agency knows exactly what they're doing with these consolidations. They have bean counters they pay a ton of money to calculate traffic count, etc. AZO people were being told they had "numbers that put us solid into a lvl 8". Well it looks like they stay a 6 and people had to learn 4 airspaces each. With this "success" they'll probably do more of these big consolidations. Yay for super tracons.
 

Ztfoocheck

Member
FAA
Messages
2
Facility
SEA Seattle Tower
Anyone know where to find the list of selections for this round? Sorry I’m late to the party 🎉🎉🎉
 

Alpha_bravo2

Trusted Contributor
FAA
Messages
195
Facility
PNS Pensacola Tower
It doesn't. The point is you should stay in your lane and work your way up if you want to have the highest chance of success both for yourself and the agency. But that's just not the way its done anymore.

I'm a fan of putting a level cap on it. I made a spreadsheet a couple years ago that tracked all the movement since NCEPT's inception and IIRC it showed that 70% or so of 4/5/6 transfers skipped right over 7/8/9's and went to 10/11/12's. There was hardly any movement from the 7/8/9's because they weren't getting the transfers they needed to release someone and at the time the agency wasn't sending academy grads there either. It just wasn't an efficient method of producing overall success to the agency. Here we are a few years later and we're no better off than when NCEPT began.
I agree the current way sucks and needs to be changed but the work your way up theory doesnt work for every facility or person wanting to transfer. I have personally been trying to get to mid level tower onlys but haven't had any success, and it makes no sense for me to go to a mid level up down were the tower is just as busy as the traffic I currently see and I don't want to mess with a TRACON.
Since NATCA and the FAA "collaborated" to do round 2 selections on a case by case basis, some of these 7,8,& 9s are going to be waiting a while to get bodies.
 
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#1349

OS Moderator
Staff member
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
403
Here’s the kicker:

If ERR Swaps and Hardships are capped off at only 3 facility level changes, then why aren’t standard ERR (NCEPT) transfers the same? What difference are there in any of the above 3 categories of transfers, aside from their specific titles?

This question isn’t rhetorical, I’m actually asking for an answer. Consistency, if you will.
 

fknlo

Active Member
Messages
70
6) the 30% cpc-it/dev to controller ratio is a mess. Have NATCA and "The agency" on a LOCAL LEVEL tell NCEPT realistically how many new arrivals it can handle, and when. (based upon cat 1/2 releases) were sort of swamped now but in three months we can see needing 4 more. So maybe 1 cat 1 arrival and the rest cat 2, etc. Edit: it's generic enough to cover national, not so rigid that it doesn't work. No one knows your fac better than you. Get the info from the source. Lock the number of inbounds that local agreed to the same time SWB gets locked before the pannel.
Yeah, there needs to be local discretion on this. I'm trying to go back to my old facility. I'd be checked out in minimums. Just put me back in my old area and let me skip the dysim lab and whatever and I'd be checked out in a month or two and be able to help their staffing immediately. The no list is pushing 200 hours of OT so they can definitely use the body.
 
Messages
17
Thought experiment: is it possible to file a grievance against the NCEPT?

Example: your current facility (lv 5 ) can release 2 people. A facility you bid for (lv 8 ) shows 1 available category 1 selection. When the list is published the level 8 has no selections and your level 5 only released 1 person.

I understand they can reject category 2 all day everyday, but can they openly go against their own selection rules and reject a category 1?

Purely hypothetical situation, of course...
 
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