I do feel welcome - a couple quick questions?

[Bob44zw]

I got a welcome message six seconds after I logged in. Thanks!

Question one - if I am number one for the runway, should I ask for a short approach? If so, what defines a short approach?
Or - how far out on downwind should I go for an approach when I am number one and have not asked for a short approach?

Background - I never ask. When the tower asks, I expedite - 100 mph directly to the runway. Slow down sideways.
A Cherokee-requested short approach is base leg one mile beyond the threshold - enough room to get me in first.

Question 2 - cleared to turn on a diagonal runway. Do I taxi clear of that runway, or do I stop on it, without benefit of hold lines, and switch to ground? The AIM is ambiguous. The AOPA says stop on the diagonal runway. So far, I taxi across the hold lines. I can change, but it will take some convincing. The AIM does say clear the hold lines, but it does not say which hold lines.

 

[Termine]

I'm still in training but here's what I would say.

Question one - if I am number one for the runway, should I ask for a short approach? If so, what defines a short approach?

I would expect a "normal" approach for a Cherokee/Skyhawk to be turning base so as to make a one-mile final. If you're number one for the runway you can ask for a short approach if you want it, but otherwise I would assume you don't; if I want you to make a short approach I've been taught that I should ask you if you're able to do it (maybe you're training and your instructor wants you to practice a standard pattern, for example).

I would expect a "short" approach to be about a half-mile final, unless I say "proceed direct the numbers" (which means turn NOW to go straight to the threshold of the runway).

Question 2 - cleared to turn on a diagonal runway. Do I taxi clear of that runway, or do I stop on it, without benefit of hold lines, and switch to ground? The AIM is ambiguous. The AOPA says stop on the diagonal runway. So far, I taxi across the hold lines. I can change, but it will take some convincing. The AIM does say clear the hold lines, but it does not say which hold lines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the AIM says a pilot is supposed to exit the runway at the first available taxiway, absent other instructions. As a local controller, it's my prerogative to turn you onto a crossing runway instead. My technique is to always tell you where to turn off that runway (time permitting), but if the AIM says to stop on the cross runway I suppose you should do that. If the cross runway has hold-short markings for the runway you landed on, those are what I need to you clear.

For context, it may be that the cross runway is inactive and belongs to ground. In that case the local controller shouldn't taxi people down it so you would contact ground for further instructions. You would probably hear an explicit "contact ground" in that case, though. At least I imagine you would.

 

[Shikaka]

I'll never ask if you can do a short approach, it's the pilot's responsibility to notify me if they can't comply with instructions.

If you want to do one you should notify the tower. Just so they have an understanding, but otherwise if you're number one and the local isn't giving any instructions in order to expedite you then don't feel rushed. We'll rush you when you should feel rushed.

As for what constitutes a normal short approach depends on the pilot. I've had dudes band it in mid field and the local guard unit prefers their short about 3 miles out. If there is a specific point you need ask the tower to call your base.

Also a short approach isn't necessarily about speed as it is minimizing the distance, my understanding is most pilots in smaller GA planes are in a sort of glide turning base and to final. So just fly your plane in a comfortable and safe manner, and they'll let you know if you need to start being uncomfortable.

As for the diagonal, taxi clear of the runway in use. I can't speak too much since I don't know the airport you're speaking of, but I assume they tell you "left/right at wherever" then switch you over. So taxi clear of the runway when told where to exit and contact ground for further taxi.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

The answers you get will more than likely vary since most airports have completely different set ups. But at my airport a normal base is about a mile to a mile and a half. You can ask for a short approach at anytime, you don't have to be number one.

Again the answer will vary but my airport if we turn you onto the inactive Runway, do not continue to taxi and exit the inactive onto a taxiway. Just to avoid confusion I will say "Turn left on RWY17 hold short of taxiway D and contact ground".

Also I would encourage you to call your local tower and ask them these questions and take a tour if you can.

 

[Shikaka]

Or even let us know where you frequently fly out of, might be some people on here.

 

[Bob44zw]

My jumpseat is always open to ATC. That was true in the 737, and is true in my J3. I am trying to get a local dialogue going - local dialogues can do really good things. As to my airport, I guarantee you if any controllers from my airport are here, they know me by name. Today was low IFR, and I was responsible for 24 operations.

If I am number 1, I approach however I want, but maintain pattern altitude until abeam the threshold. The AIM states that I should be established on final no later than 1/4 mile from the threshold, which is inside the approach path of an idle descent in the airplanes I fly. I have just been wondering if I am missing some new deal that requires a clearance if the base leg is inside some specific distance - especially since Cessna and Cherokee requested short approaches involve a one mile final.

To the student who responded, there is an AC that prohibits hold lines on runways. These 300 page ACs specify some really strange stuff - did you know that a VFR runway cannot be wider than 75 feet? Or that a taxiway must be something like 126 feet wide? Or that instrument runway hold lines are now so far away from the runway that even the pros stop short, thinking they are hold lines for the parallel runway?

I will get the AIM paragraph that I think is ambiguous. Stand by . . .

 

[Bob44zw]

a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots must not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.

b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the runway edge and there are no restrictions to its continued movement beyond the runway holding position markings.

So, "taxi clear of the runway . . ." I suppose one could assume they mean the landing runway, but it does not say that. underlining is mine; italics are AIM 4-3-20

 

[Shikaka]

Bob44zw I'm not sure about other controllers but I'm not so versed in the AIM, as for the 7110.65 on the terminal side we reference 3-10-9 for runway exiting. For that here is what our guidelines go about it:

a. Instruct aircraft where to turn-off the runway after landing, when appropriate, and advise the aircraft to hold short of a runway or taxiway if required for traffic.

and

b. Taxi instructions must be provided to the aircraft by the local controller when: 1. Compliance with ATC instructions will be required before the aircraft can change to ground control, or 2. The aircraft will be required to enter an active runway in order to taxi clear of the landing runway.

So in short, if the instruction is simply exiting then you'd be turning onto an inactive runway. If the tower controller gives you more extensive exiting instructions then it's active at the time. "Clear of the runway" for us is exited after landing and deconflicted with ground traffic (more ambiguity with this in other parts of the .65). Assumed we could agree that they're referencing the runway you landed on.

 

[Bob44zw]

That might be the key - our cross runway is usually active, if only for helicopters.

I found that out when I overflew a helicopter on the cross runway. Tower needs vertical separation of 500 feet. Not so on a taxiway - choppers routinely overfly me (a 700 lb weakling) at fifty feet. Perfectly ok on a taxiway.

Difficult to agree on ambiguous text.

Thanks for your help. We will coordinate with the tower folk.

 

[CaptainObvious]

That might be the key - our cross runway is usually active, if only for helicopters.

I found that out when I overflew a helicopter on the cross runway. Tower needs vertical separation of 500 feet. Not so on a taxiway - choppers routinely overfly me (a 700 lb weakling) at fifty feet. Perfectly ok on a taxiway.

Difficult to agree on ambiguous text.

Thanks for your help. We will coordinate with the tower folk.

Tower shouldn’t be having them overfly you. We always told helicopters departing or arriving about taxiing traffic and gave them “do not overfly the piper south on Alpha”

I disagree slightly with Foogy. I used “make short approach” all the time for traffic in all the towers I worked at. Usually “make short approach, you’re inside a King Air on a 2 mile final” or something similar

 

[MJ]

but it does not say which hold lines.

That entire paragraph is referring to the landing runway.

As for exiting on a runway, active/inactive is irrelevant and not something a pilot would even know, it's for internal coordination purposes. If tower is exiting you onto another runway, they have to issue other instructions, whether its further taxi instructions or a freq change. Your only obligation is to clear the landing runway; the last sentence is pretty clear

Once all parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding position markings, the pilot must hold unless further instructions have been issued by ATC.

 

[Shikaka]

I disagree slightly with Foogy. I used “make short approach” all the time for traffic in all the towers I worked at. Usually “make short approach, you’re inside a King Air on a 2 mile final” or something similar

I use it too, I was just saying he shouldn't expect the tower to ask him if he can do a short approach. I never ask if they can do it. Simply expect a hearty "unable" if they can't.

 

[Bob44zw]

Again, there are no hold lines on cross runways. There used to be - but they confused landing pilots. If you are told to exit on a cross runway, the only way you can adhere to MJ's "pretty clear last sentence" is to exit the cross runway.

I agree - explicit instructions are probably needed. In my case, it would be "zulu whiskey, turn left on 23; hold short of taxiway Hotel." Otherwise, according to that pretty clear sentence, I would need to cross some dashes.

 

[MJ]

Again, there are no hold lines on cross runways.

There's normally not going to be unless LAHSO is used. There's a big red sign denoting the holding position for the crossing runway.

 

[Stinger]

Again, there are no hold lines on cross runways. There used to be - but they confused landing pilots. If you are told to exit on a cross runway, the only way you can adhere to MJ's "pretty clear last sentence" is to exit the cross runway.

I agree - explicit instructions are probably needed. In my case, it would be "zulu whiskey, turn left on 23; hold short of taxiway Hotel." Otherwise, according to that pretty clear sentence, I would need to cross some dashes.

When you exit 28L and turn left on 23, all ATC cares about is that you've moved past the 28L edge line with nothing impeding your forward movement before a departure starts their takeoff roll from 28L. No need to have hold-short lines in that case. Plus there would be no possibility to have holdshort lines there because that distance is too small to run LAHSO on 5 and hold short of 28L/10R (even though you could do it in your Cub.)

 

[Bob44zw]

All very reasonable. I was looking for cut and dried “these are the rules”. AIM is not “rules”, but close enough in an administrative law court. Thanks for all the help.

 

[Shikaka]

The job is more of an I can legally do this because it doesn't say I can't type of gig.

 

[Bob44zw]

Got another question:
I have been flying for 59 years, the last 52 with a radio on board. I have never been turned down for entering controlled airspace (well, once, a controller wasn't going to let me leave Stapleton without a transponder, but we worked it out in the end).

Early this year I was turned down for entry of a class D because I was not transponder equipped. We worked that out in a hurry with a knowledgable supervisor. Last week I was again turned down implicitly at the same facility. And today I was in an ADS-B-equipped aircraft and was refused entry to essentially empty class B airspace.

My perhaps mis-impression is that ATC services are "first come, first-served" with limited and reasonable exceptions. I can handle delays - "remain outside class X airspace; you are #5 for callback." I am ready for that.

Is there some rule that I am not aware of that lets a controller prioritize airspace entry based on installed equipment or his/her impression of whether you are joyriding or actually on a serious mission? In the class Delta refusal this week I was actually on business - a maintenance event - and inbound and outbound touch and goes were given priority over my aircraft. Fortunately, I had plenty of fuel for my 18 minute hold.

This is a well-named forum. I note that the dash 65 is now 729 pages long, and I do not have a prayer of understanding that. But paragraph 2-1-4 seems unchanged from when this was a 17 page handbook.

 

[jdatc]

.

....And today I was in an ADS-B-equipped aircraft and was refused entry to essentially empty class B airspace....

This is fairly vague. Did you want to clip an edge, climb through it or fly directly at the active runway at 1500', et cetera... Depending on each situation, it could be an easy yes, a compromise, or a no even if it was empty at that moment....

For instance Straight across the Bravo at a blistering 70kts in a c152 right toward the departure end of the runway at 2000' isn't going to happen because most likely someone is going to taxi out and depart directly at you before you get there in the 10/15 minutes it would take you flying in from the edge of the Bravo. Or an arrival might be inbound 60 miles out and if they go around they are going to hit you if you are there. It might be quiet, but unless it's a midnight, that isn't going to work most of the time.

Every situation is unique.

 

[Bob44zw]

No - it was empty airspace above a closed Marine base. I transit it once a week in my Decathlon without problems, most of the time with Marine controllers. When they are closed, the only traffic is aircraft like mine. I had a clearance, but he took it away when he discovered I was a local flight. And yeah, I am a blistering 110 kt Decathlon, but that was not his reason.