LOUD NOISES

In the modern era of hiring I bet there are 50% or so of the population that wants to move from level 7’s and 8’s, and closer to 70% at 6’s and below. Some people want to move to make money but most people were forced to those facilities. In the day you used to pick something like 2-5 states to ask to be placed in, so no matter what they gave you you could live with it. Now it’s all a fantasy lotto at the end of the academy or a small section list for military hires. You have a lot more people now who end up nowhere near they wanted too.
 
Close facilities and consolidate. No one cares about flint, Moses lake, Erie, El Paso, etc.
A huge issue with some of the mid-level facilities is that the full staffing numbers are so high and yet the number of controllers needed to actually run the place is low. This means that as soon as the staffing starts to tick up and people start getting certified, the numbers (time on position, etc) start looking much better and even though they are nowhere near their release point the agency can use the numbers to justify supervisor deviations, Bc the metrics pass muster.

The solution is to lower the full staffing number, but what ATM is going to sign off on being in charge of a smaller organization with less people and less responsibility? It doesn’t look good on the resume.

Closing low level facilities is short sighted and selfish. Just because you don't want to be there doesn't mean nobody wants to have that job. Any union member advocating to take work away from their union is a fool
You Don’t have to close them, but consolidating radars would make it a lot easier to get people done, instead of 3 year training times.

There is a self reenforcing cycle to facility staffing. Assign, train, certify, release

Places that can execute this cycle fast, are pumping people out. Low level VFR towers are a great example, where you can walk in the building in Jan and be out the door by December (less time, if you’re an RPO ?). When a low level tower with 11 people releases someone, they shoot right back to the top of the places that need people. So they get assigned a new academy grad and the cycle starts over. 1 in, 1 out, quickly.

Meanwhile, at a place like Moses lake it takes 3 or more years to certify. No one can leave until this trainee certifies, so that’s 3 years in limbo. But it’s more because they don’t need one person to get certified they need like seven to get to the point where they can release someone. In that time, a place like ARR or TOA can receive and release 6-10 people, or more, because they execute the loop faster. it’s a self reinforcing cycle, as you’re releasing you’re getting put right back on the block to get more people, people know it and waiting a year isn’t that big a deal.

At a place like Moses Lake, maybe four of the seven trainees that they need to certify to release someone get certified and then the numbers start looking really good and then people are desperate so everyone is trying to put in supervisor bids. They don’t want to be supervisors but they also don’t want to spend a decade at Moses Lake. So the deviation gets approved and now even if you certify everyone you won’t be at a place to release and yet your staffing % will be high enough that you won’t be high enough on the priority list to get someone from the Academy or a prior experience person for a while.

You’re just kind of stalled out in the middle of the cycle, you don’t have enough people to leave but you have too many people to get new trainees so you can have the numbers leave and it’s a really awful position to be in. The process is neither fair nor equitable.
 
A lot of low level controllers are washouts from higher levels and won’t want to move. I know my first facility all the center washouts were homesteaded there and wouldn’t even considering moving.

Edit to add that Moses lake is its own special animal. They have a culture issue that needs corrected regardless of ncept and releases. I do feel for those guys and people at similar places.
 
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A huge issue with some of the mid-level facilities is that the full staffing numbers are so high and yet the number of controllers needed to actually run the place is low. This means that as soon as the staffing starts to tick up and people start getting certified, the numbers (time on position, etc) start looking much better and even though they are nowhere near their release point the agency can use the numbers to justify supervisor deviations, Bc the metrics pass muster.

The solution is to lower the full staffing number, but what ATM is going to sign off on being in charge of a smaller organization with less people and less responsibility? It doesn’t look good on the resume.

im pretty sure atms are not promoted because of how many people they are in charge of. Nor do they give a crap Reducing numbers will not matter whatsoever to the ladder climbers, if anything it will show the brass Their abilities to Smoothly navigate a large undertaking. Most atms come in and move on because they don’t want to be there, used it for a stepping stone, or were told that’s where they were going to go. How many apply to those atm positions, I bet it’s under 5 most times.


A lot of low level controllers are washouts from higher levels and won’t want to move. I know my first facility all the center washouts were homesteaded there and wouldn’t even considering moving.

Edit to add that Moses lake is its own special animal. They have a culture issue that needs corrected regardless of ncept and releases. I do feel for those guys and people at similar places.

it’s not all like that because you had that experience. I certainly know those facilities exists though. I know a lot, but again how many? How many are there like your first facility? You shoot down an idea floated with the intent of helping many more people because you had an experience that put a bad taste in your mouth. Moses lake is its own special animal Yes but also a byproduct of the Current system. Shitty managment,I imagine bullshit hardships by BUEs, the union and managment allowing bullshit to go on and a bad culture to fester. Just close it, consolidate and move on. It’s slow as hell and let some contractor nickel and dime and under staff, would anybody cry? No or very few.

edit: all the forced moves of the 50-70 percent you stated who wouldn’t mind moving would now get 30k move money and a pay bump once full cpc. And prob live in a way more desirable area. I don’t know about you but that all sounds good to me and many others.
 
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im pretty sure atms are not promoted because of how many people they are in charge of. Nor do they give a crap Reducing numbers will not matter whatsoever to the ladder climbers, if anything it will show the brass Their abilities to Smoothly navigate a large undertaking. Most atms come in and move on because they don’t want to be there, used it for a stepping stone, or were told that’s where they were going to go. How many apply to those atm positions, I bet it’s under 5 most times.




it’s not all like that because you had that experience. I certainly know those facilities exists though. I know a lot, but again how many? How many are there like your first facility? You shoot down an idea floated with the intent of helping many more people because you had an experience that put a bad taste in your mouth. Moses lake is its own special animal Yes but also a byproduct of the Current system. Shitty managment,I imagine bullshit hardships by BUEs, the union and managment allowing bullshit to go on and a bad culture to fester. Just close it, consolidate and move on. It’s slow as hell and let some contractor nickel and dime and under staff, would anybody cry? No or very few.

edit: all the forced moves of the 50-70 percent you stated who wouldn’t mind moving would now get 30k move money and a pay bump once full cpc. And prob live in a way more desirable area. I don’t know about you but that all sounds good to me and many others.
Is this not what Kalamazoo did?

Back to off topic.
What states the FLMs and OMs can't be NATCA?
 
What states the FLMs and OMs can't be NATCA?

The NATCA constitution very strongly implies that supervisory and management positions aren't covered, but the only explicit spelling-out is Article III Section 1: "Any employee employed in a bargaining unit represented by the Association shall be eligible for active membership in the Association." The definition of the bargaining unit is from a FLRA decision that's copied in the Slate Book as Appendix D-1 (page 272), and specifically excludes supervisors and management officials.

And like spider said, although the decision doesn't specifically mention it, 5 USC 7112 (b)(1) holds that a bargaining unit can't be "appropriate" if it includes supervisors... unless (as provided for in 5 USC 7135 (a)(2)) those supervisors traditionally were represented by a union. I thought I heard that it was debated when NATCA formed whether to allow supes in or not, is that true? In any case, they aren't now, so.
 
You Don’t have to close them, but consolidating radars would make it a lot easier to get people done, instead of 3 year training times.

There is a self reenforcing cycle to facility staffing. Assign, train, certify, release

Places that can execute this cycle fast, are pumping people out. Low level VFR towers are a great example, where you can walk in the building in Jan and be out the door by December (less time, if you’re an RPO ?). When a low level tower with 11 people releases someone, they shoot right back to the top of the places that need people. So they get assigned a new academy grad and the cycle starts over. 1 in, 1 out, quickly.

Meanwhile, at a place like Moses lake it takes 3 or more years to certify. No one can leave until this trainee certifies, so that’s 3 years in limbo. But it’s more because they don’t need one person to get certified they need like seven to get to the point where they can release someone. In that time, a place like ARR or TOA can receive and release 6-10 people, or more, because they execute the loop faster. it’s a self reinforcing cycle, as you’re releasing you’re getting put right back on the block to get more people, people know it and waiting a year isn’t that big a deal.

At a place like Moses Lake, maybe four of the seven trainees that they need to certify to release someone get certified and then the numbers start looking really good and then people are desperate so everyone is trying to put in supervisor bids. They don’t want to be supervisors but they also don’t want to spend a decade at Moses Lake. So the deviation gets approved and now even if you certify everyone you won’t be at a place to release and yet your staffing % will be high enough that you won’t be high enough on the priority list to get someone from the Academy or a prior experience person for a while.

You’re just kind of stalled out in the middle of the cycle, you don’t have enough people to leave but you have too many people to get new trainees so you can have the numbers leave and it’s a really awful position to be in. The process is neither fair nor equitable.

This is a seperate topic. Training culture and combining positions or consolidating them or whatever is completely different.

Close facilities and consolidate. No one cares about flint, Moses lake, Erie, El Paso, etc.

This is what I was referring to. While I'm sure that a lot of smaller facilities don't need to split off certain things, I don't work there so I'm not going to get into the weeds on specific facilities' procedures and cultures.

Also, FLMs and OMs can join NATCA but not as a BUE. It's as an associate member, and is typically done so that they can keep certain benefits such as unum
 
im pretty sure atms are not promoted because of how many people they are in charge of. Nor do they give a crap Reducing numbers will not matter whatsoever to the ladder climbers, if anything it will show the brass Their abilities to Smoothly navigate a large undertaking. Most atms come in and move on because they don’t want to be there, used it for a stepping stone, or were told that’s where they were going to go. How many apply to those atm positions, I bet it’s under 5 most times.




it’s not all like that because you had that experience. I certainly know those facilities exists though. I know a lot, but again how many?

Rule number 1 of management: you’re always looking to be in charge of more people, not less. Agreeing to give up people, and therefore responsibility is the opposite direction you want to go. Always look to be taking on more responsibility, don’t let someone else take it away.

Like I said, there’s multiple FAAs. Unless you’re at a place like Moses lake, where there isn’t even hope of getting out under ncept, you have no idea what it’s like and how toxic it is.

Those bottom tier cesspool facilities either need to be consolidated and contracted out or have a Guam style bid - go here and suck it up for 3-5 years, after that you can go anywhere you want that’s open. That’s the only way you’re going to get people to go and incentivize them to put their time in and not apply to every supe bid out there.

A lot of low level controllers are washouts from higher levels and won’t want to move. I know my first facility all the center washouts were homesteaded there and wouldn’t even considering moving.

Edit to add that Moses lake is its own special animal. They have a culture issue that needs corrected regardless of ncept and releases. I do feel for those guys and people at similar places.
There’s a few more besides Moses lake too. There’s places that have released 1 or none in all the years of ncept. Nothing is more demoralizing than watching everyone you went to the academy with many years ago move on to 2nd and 3rd facilities when you’re still stuck at your first. I am not even saying that I am entitled to move somewhere else, I would just like a shot at even being considered.
 
Not really relevant but I thought Moses lake washes more people from the tower than downstairs? They’re one of those weird ones where the tower does more operations than the tracon.
 
Even people at Moses Lake know there's no chance of moving out.... Only one employee there has ERRs out.
Can you blame them? What’s the point when you’re 4-7 CPCs from letting one go. This is why NCEPT needs to die, it’s not fair that someone in the agency for a year can transfer out right away to their dream facility, but a 10 year CPC can’t event get their name submitted for consideration. No one should be stuck, period that’s the end of it. You can’t ever be considered due to factors beyond your control? That’s pretty fucked up.
 
Can you blame them? What’s the point when you’re 4-7 CPCs from letting one go. This is why NCEPT needs to die, it’s not fair that someone in the agency for a year can transfer out right away to their dream facility, but a 10 year CPC can’t event get their name submitted for consideration. No one should be stuck, period that’s the end of it. You can’t ever be considered due to factors beyond your control? That’s pretty fucked up.
They should just let all the trainees move to their facility or choice since they can’t even work ?
 
I'm going to tell you some wise words someone once told me.

"You didn’t say anything actually smart. Really like a little kid saying stupid comments back when they’re wrong. Pathetic"
Works Cited: popa, Kilo. “Training Hold.” PointSixtyFive, PointSixtyFive, 16 May 2020, pointsixtyfive.com/xenforo/threads/training- hold.4186/page-20.
Sick response. Dirty.

Maybe redirect your energy towards certification and then you can worry about the birds, bees and planting those sees for shade.
This dude is actually so smart and has it all figured out so well. We should be listening to him more and taking advice. ESP when it comes to works cited.
 
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