NCEPT going away?

Robertb

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
475
Facility
A80 Atlanta Tracon
maybe if your training culture got better and certified more of the 26 trainees (plus 4 inbounds) as of the 9/25 PPT (and you are receiving an additional 6 this past round), and you all raised your 43.7 percent training success rate (which is data as of the end of 2015 or 2016) then youd be able to let some people go. The ncept isn't your biggest problem, your training department is. the FAA has hit all their hiring goals for the last few years. hiring more people because you all cant train isn't how this works.
The agency has hit like 3 hiring yearly goals in the last 15 years. That’s roughly a 20% success rate. Quality job there... In the last 8 years, they’ve shorted their hiring goals by roughly 1,500-2,000 potential controllers. You can read the multiple audits by the Inspector General, if you so care.

Have you been here to personally see the training culture? I’d say that answer is a no and you’re just talking shit from what you’ve heard from washouts or experienced yourself, assuming you have even been to this facility, as a washout. We’ve doubled training hours, increased classroom/simulator time, hand out SET like it is candy, and yet people still can’t certify. So for you to try and say the training isn’t adequate is complete and utter bullshit and completely based on your false perception of this facility and not what actually occurs here. If the quality isn’t there, you can’t or at least shouldn’t certify people.
 

Josephml21

Forum Sage
Messages
325
Until the FAA hires more people, it is highly likely you’ll see less movements, across the NAS except to/from certain facilities, in the next year or two, unless someone gets a deviation approved. There’s still another 1-3 years of retirements to come. Plus, a few people who want certain areas of the country and are putting in paperwork for the DOD.
Example: A80
We have 82 CPCs (1 part time and 1 National detail). Our facility wants 3 more TMUs, 3 supervisors, at least 2 support specialists, and 10-11 CPCs are eligible to retire. Assuming all of those placements are internal, we are back down to 64 CPCs. We will get some trainees to certify (average says 12 out of 29) so that’s 76 CPCs in 2022. Then, you add in the 3 CPCs that have gotten deviations approved, for external supervisor positions, that aren’t in the worksheet numbers. Those will probably be covered by soon to transfer in CPC-ITs. So you’re looking at still not being able to release a controller SEVEN YEARS into the implementation of NCEPT. I said it to Paul Rinaldi, after the very first panel in 2015, and I’ll say it again, “...NCEPT is a colossal fucking failure...”
Other way around... We have two coming in that have been DOD for 15ish years. I'm guessing this will be the new way to get where you want. Work DOD then tell the faa not to call unless it's an offer for the facility you want.

They get to keep their pay and leave only down side is the no natca time thing.
 

PushingTin

Forum Sage
Messages
488
Maybe some facilities are hard
Some are, but the training culture at most is still a disaster. Counterintuitive as it may be, washout rates and difficulty level are not synonymous; and if you think they are you're living under a comfy little idealistic rock. Some of the mythically hard facilities are not as hard as mid levels with no structure and no ability to arbitrarily "shut off" traffic on a whim because they're in a bad mood and didnt get their hour shove.


 

Josephml21

Forum Sage
Messages
325
Some are, but the training culture at most is still a disaster. Counterintuitive as it may be, washout rates and difficulty level are not synonymous; and if you think they are you're living under a comfy little idealistic rock. Some of the mythically hard facilities are not as hard as mid levels with no structure and no ability to arbitrarily "shut off" traffic on a whim because they're in a bad mood and didnt get their hour shove.



I know a facility that has an atrocious wash rate and that is made "hard" because that training program blows and they refuse to update or upgrade anything.

For example, the stand alone 11 approach I worked at if you had a go around you were getting PROC'd. A clean consistent final is what they wanted and preached. Current facility could care less. Base to final at 250kt? Sure! He's number one why slow him? Sure he blew though the localizer by two miles but I'm shit hot because he's still doing 250kts 8 mile final... (and he's too high, and probably unstable as fuck)
 

Ad1234

Member
Messages
28
The agency has hit like 3 hiring yearly goals in the last 15 years. That’s roughly a 20% success rate. Quality job there... In the last 8 years, they’ve shorted their hiring goals by roughly 1,500-2,000 potential controllers. You can read the multiple audits by the Inspector General, if you so care.

Have you been here to personally see the training culture? I’d say that answer is a no and you’re just talking shit from what you’ve heard from washouts or experienced yourself, assuming you have even been to this facility, as a washout. We’ve doubled training hours, increased classroom/simulator time, hand out SET like it is candy, and yet people still can’t certify. So for you to try and say the training isn’t adequate is complete and utter bullshit and completely based on your false perception of this facility and not what actually occurs here. If the quality isn’t there, you can’t or at least shouldn’t certify people.

and go figure, A80 is only 23.7 percent better at certifications than you claim the faa is at hiring. At least 3 of those years have involved a government shutdown, so those are absolutely not their fault, brining their total up to 25%, which is less than 20% percent away from the success rate of A80 certifications. Also, if the quality isn't there, you cant or at least shouldn't hire people. I'm not talking shit, its just reality, your success rate is awful. why is that? I'm seriously asking, here is your forum. I'm not making fun of you, I'm not trolling, why is it that bad? I'm honestly curious to hear what you have to say.

. Other than the obvious gap, id say that's pretty darn close. needs to be better. capture.PNG
 

PushingTin

Forum Sage
Messages
488
. Base to final at 250kt? Sure! He's number one why slow him? Sure he blew though the localizer by two miles but I'm shit hot because he's still doing 250kts 8 mile final... (and he's too high, and probably unstable as fuck)
LOL yeah and when the pilot questions them they get angry and salty and defensive, because they have no idea its not a very stable approach and piss poor service. Its just "how they do it at _____ ". Monkey see monkey do!

"I don't know why that guy went around, i swear these pilots are getting shittier!".
 

Foogy

Forum Sage
Messages
707
I would say the pass rate is a poor indicator of whether a facility is hard or training is poor, maybe the time to certify would be a better option to indicate difficulty. The training success rate should be an indicator for the quality of training.

Source: Level 5 with a 71% pass rate in the books, but a 50% for the past couple years...
 

Dolan

Trusted Contributor
Messages
257
I'm so glad I resigned in 2016, what a shitshow this has turned into. Now I get to watch this union eat itself while getting lv 12 pay for 9 traffic.

Transfers are going to grind to a damn near halt for the next year or two, probably longer
 

mrobs15

Forum Sage
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
315
I would say the pass rate is a poor indicator of whether a facility is hard or training is poor, maybe the time to certify would be a better option to indicate difficulty. The training success rate should be an indicator for the quality of training.

Source: Level 5 with a 71% pass rate in the books, but a 50% for the past couple years...
I heard your ATM doesn't do TRBs. Just terminates training. Is that even allowed? Haha
 

Maintainvfr

Forum Sage
Messages
368
and go figure, A80 is only 23.7 percent better at certifications than you claim the faa is at hiring. At least 3 of those years have involved a government shutdown, so those are absolutely not their fault, brining their total up to 25%, which is less than 20% percent away from the success rate of A80 certifications. Also, if the quality isn't there, you cant or at least shouldn't hire people. I'm not talking shit, its just reality, your success rate is awful. why is that? I'm seriously asking, here is your forum. I'm not making fun of you, I'm not trolling, why is it that bad? I'm honestly curious to hear what you have to say.

. Other than the obvious gap, id say that's pretty darn close. needs to be better. View attachment 3028
40% is literally twice as good as 20%

I don't work there but I've heard Atlanta is a pretty busy airport, probably accounts for a lot of the failures. In my experience a lot of legitimately busy facilities have a big problem with training withdrawals. So many people realize they don't want to get buried in planes all day ever day, it's a lot different than the 1 busy hour surrounded by 7 slow hours from their level 6 up/down. I'm sure a portion of those "failures" could have done the job, and decided the grass wasn't greener.

You also completely ignored what he said about the drastically reduced hiring goals... It's a lot easier to hit a goal when it's cut in half.
 

Dolan

Trusted Contributor
Messages
257
So many people realize they don't want to get buried in planes all day ever day, it's a lot different than the 1 busy hour surrounded by 7 slow hours from their level 6 up/down. I'm sure a portion of those "failures" could have done the job, and decided the grass wasn't greener.
Totally agree that this is a thing. They should drastically increase the penalty for doing this though as far as that person returning to the level 6 and immediately start erring again. If you played the system well you could spend a huge chunk of your career getting paid big bucks to not be a controller
 

Robertb

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
475
Facility
A80 Atlanta Tracon
Totally agree that this is a thing. They should drastically increase the penalty for doing this though as far as that person returning to the level 6 and immediately start erring again. If you played the system well you could spend a huge chunk of your career getting paid big bucks to not be a controller
That was a huge benefit, of the priority release MOU, as it prevented people from putting their paperwork in and then playing the NEST lotto when they withdrew or washed out. Seriously, one person, from a level 9 up/down, washed out on a map test of MCN. You own surface to 10K and have to label a few airports, approaches, and airways! It sure as hell isn’t the ZTL 1000+ airspace item map.
 

Ad1234

Member
Messages
28
40% is literally twice as good as 20%

I don't work there but I've heard Atlanta is a pretty busy airport, probably accounts for a lot of the failures. In my experience a lot of legitimately busy facilities have a big problem with training withdrawals. So many people realize they don't want to get buried in planes all day ever day, it's a lot different than the 1 busy hour surrounded by 7 slow hours from their level 6 up/down. I'm sure a portion of those "failures" could have done the job, and decided the grass wasn't greener.

You also completely ignored what he said about the drastically reduced hiring goals... It's a lot easier to hit a goal when it's cut in half.
just because it’s twice as good doesn’t make it good, just a better looking pile of crap.
I ignored responding not that he said it. Currently there are 3600 trainees, and 1600 retirements in the system and approx 1800 new hires entering this FY which is what the academy can currently handle. They are ruining nights and days correct? Doing the math and yes I understand the staffing might not be at specific facilities, that gives us approx 1300 controllers above the staffing numbers and 150+ facilities at 95percent staffing within 12 months and that’s assuming people don’t make it because that’s built into the numbers. We don’t have a staffing problem, train these people and get them certified and it’ll get much better much sooner. Staff the lab 24/7 and get these people all the training they can handle plus some, write new classes, prepare better aim problems, retract people how to be instructors, move the trainees around for a better training team. But no the agency and facilities don’t do that and people come On to forums and complain when the actually have the bodies but don’t give everyone everything they need. Yes some people will ways I get it but 43 percent sucks. That shit should be unacceptable.
 

32andBelow

Forum Sage
Messages
545
That was a huge benefit, of the priority release MOU, as it prevented people from putting their paperwork in and then playing the NEST lotto when they withdrew or washed out. Seriously, one person, from a level 9 up/down, washed out on a map test of MCN. You own surface to 10K and have to label a few airports, approaches, and airways! It sure as hell isn’t the ZTL 1000+ airspace item map.
New training order means you only have to get 70 on any map test so that should be no problem.
 

Robertb

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
475
Facility
A80 Atlanta Tracon
just because it’s twice as good doesn’t make it good, just a better looking pile of crap.
I ignored responding not that he said it. Currently there are 3600 trainees, and 1600 retirements in the system and approx 1800 new hires entering this FY which is what the academy can currently handle. They are ruining nights and days correct? Doing the math and yes I understand the staffing might not be at specific facilities, that gives us approx 1300 controllers above the staffing numbers and 150+ facilities at 95percent staffing within 12 months and that’s assuming people don’t make it because that’s built into the numbers. We don’t have a staffing problem, train these people and get them certified and it’ll get much better much sooner. Staff the lab 24/7 and get these people all the training they can handle plus some, write new classes, prepare better aim problems, retract people how to be instructors, move the trainees around for a better training team. But no the agency and facilities don’t do that and people come On to forums and complain when the actually have the bodies but don’t give everyone everything they need. Yes some people will ways I get it but 43 percent sucks. That shit should be unacceptable.
Whenever you feel like taking annual leave or a FAM trip to ATL, I’ll personally come pick you up from the airport, drive you to the facility, and you can monitor as long as you want. Then, YOU can help tell us what we are doing wrong as a facility, in regards to training.

Still, you’re missing the years of missed hiring goals and being short controllers in the NAS. The agency has sucked, at hiring, since literally Clinton was in office. That’s not an over exaggeration. That’s the truth. So your solution is to give trainees unlimited hours, SET every week, change training teams repeatedly, and then certify them at some point? What do you consider “giving them everything they need?” You don’t think doubling training hours, SET like it is Halloween night and we are handing out candy, ATMs overturning TRBs with unanimous determinations, agency audits stating that we are going above and beyond to try and help people be successful here, our former training union head helping national with training across the National because of how well we are trying to help people through training, et cetera isn’t indicative of us having a slight idea of what we are doing?!? It is COMPLETELY obvious that you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about when it comes to training at high volume, busy facilities!
 
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