New time off between shifts mandate. Big change

[ATC Zero]

The problem is the imposed rules simply don’t work for 24 hour facilities that have consistent OT. You either need to have straight shifts or first day mids. First day mids should be illegal. It completely ruins the 2nd RDO and if you have OT on the first RDO you have zero weekend and are also now in the building for parts of 7 days in a row.

Either way if anyone scheduled a mid takes SL there is no way to replace them as all of your day shifts are likely ineligible due to the 12 hour rule. The only way to combat this I see is to allow some sort of excused absence at the end of the current day shifts before a mid that counts towards the 12 hours. Example you work 530a-1330p, but get excused at 1030am, and come back at 1030pm for the mid. However now you need call in OT for swing shifts to cover it.

The rattler isn’t bad at all if you don’t have OT on your weekend but that doesn’t apply to many facilities anymore

If it’s not going to work for a lot of facilities maybe operating hours need to be looked at for non 24hr facilities, when my facility has mentioned that in the past it’s like how dare you say that, well maybe now is the time.
For 24hr facilities maybe services get curtailed, no practice approaches IDK what for your type of facilities you could do.

 

[Soul_Controller]

Some people here and on Reddit trying to work out a new rattler or even a “reverse rattler” might be missing the point that the agency might be making a move to eliminate it entirely starting with the increased time off.

The reverse rattler literally gives you the most time off between shifts out of all the schedules. This idea isn't some recent invention. First day mid was always the worst case scenario out of crying about the schedule.

The problem is that permanent shifts fuck over low seniority people, and weekly (or longer) rotating shifts annoy the fuck out of high seniority people.

 

[Logical_Mongoose]

Tighten the fucking screws.

Any studies ever look at 10-12 hour shifts?
If you could guarantee hour on, hour off for 12 hours what's the fatigue performance result?

The current/past studies I imagine look at more time on position and less time on break.

What do other countries do? Military? Why is 10 the max. Keep the 60 hour week max but guarantee equivalent time on break/non-operational to time on on position and I'm sure it's manageable.

Less appearances at work makes everyone happy. Lot of stressful civil service jobs allow 10-12s hour shifts then swing into 3-4 RDOs. A mini vacation every week

I believe the primary focus of the study was fatigue as a direct result of the sleep schedule it forces, it didn't even consider the intensity of the work performed on that schedule because regardless what it is (sign-spinning to neurosurgery) your health and performance will will suffer. People here can be shown how terrible the rattler is for their health, but if they think they like it they will defend it to their early grave. Straight mids might suck for a lot of people, but the damage the rattler does to your long-term health is insane.

If anyone gets a chance to check out the fatigue risk assessment report that Whitaker refers to in his agency emails I would recommend a read through to gain some context. It does rehash allot of studies that’ve been done over the past few decades.

The TLDR on page 2 is basically the suggested actions include the suggested 10-12 hours of rest between shifts, and the removal of what they call the counter clock-wise 2-2-1 rotating schedule or the “rattler”.

At the same time I’m at a midsize facility where someone tried to make a straight day/swing/mid schedule that didn’t work because we didn’t have the manning for it. So not really sure how this is gonna pan out for any low to mid facility like ours.

FAA Safety Review Team Report 11/16/2023

It's worth reiterating for all the people on here bringing up staffing, transferring, and hiring that it has literally been put in writing in the report "Big Whit" references that NCEPT/transfers should be placed on an indefinite hold and there needs to be more 804's to help "fix" staffing. Does anyone not see those being pushed if NATCA half-asses a pushback on the schedule change, or as a "step 2" after the schedule change causes staffing to self-immolate?

The FAA's ambition and writing on the wall is to have you stuck wherever you are and downgrade as many facilities as possible to pay you as little as they possibly can.

 

[DankVectorz]

The ones with at least 50 employees? Article 31 brah.

That prerequisite basically means all high level facilities. I was just using that as an example but if you have 49 employees you’re 100% on your own because that makes sense for the gubment.

Read article 31 again. It doesn’t provide for free child care, it says the government may provide government owned or leased space for child care free of charge if it’s found feasible and needed.

 

[32andBelow]

I believe the primary focus of the study was fatigue as a direct result of the sleep schedule it forces, it didn't even consider the intensity of the work performed on that schedule because regardless what it is (sign-spinning to neurosurgery) your health and performance will will suffer. People here can be shown how terrible the rattler is for their health, but if they think they like it they will defend it to their early grave. Straight mids might suck for a lot of people, but the damage the rattler does to your long-term health is insane.

FAA Safety Review Team Report 11/16/2023

It's worth reiterating for all the people on here bringing up staffing, transferring, and hiring that it has literally been put in writing in the report "Big Whit" references that NCEPT/transfers should be placed on an indefinite hold and there needs to be more 804's to help "fix" staffing. Does anyone not see those being pushed if NATCA half-asses a pushback on the schedule change, or as a "step 2" after the schedule change causes staffing to self-immolate?

The FAA's ambition and writing on the wall is to have you stuck wherever you are and downgrade as many facilities as possible to pay you as little as they possibly can.

It’s interesting you bring up intensity. One of the nice parts of the rattler is you kinda get to chill out for some of your hours during the week. Working 40 hours of straight busy traffic in the summer can be very tiring.

 

[abc1234]

The problem is the imposed rules simply don’t work for 24 hour facilities that have consistent OT. You either need to have straight shifts or first day mids. First day mids should be illegal. It completely ruins the 2nd RDO and if you have OT on the first RDO you have zero weekend and are also now in the building for parts of 7 days in a row.

Either way if anyone scheduled a mid takes SL there is no way to replace them as all of your day shifts are likely ineligible due to the 12 hour rule. The only way to combat this I see is to allow some sort of excused absence at the end of the current day shifts before a mid that counts towards the 12 hours. Example you work 530a-1330p, but get excused at 1030am, and come back at 1030pm for the mid. However now you need call in OT for swing shifts to cover it.

The rattler isn’t bad at all if you don’t have OT on your weekend but that doesn’t apply to many facilities anymore

You guys that keep bringing up "excused absence" to count towards your 12 hours of rest don't understand that is one thing we can say hands down will never happen. If you're in a paid state of leave or absence you're considered on duty as far as rest hours go.

Haven't you ever banged on the swing before your quick turn then try to flex in the next morning and it says "oops! You have less than 9 hours of rest!" even though you actually had 36 hours of rest. It doesn't matter. Multiple managers I've talked to say there's no way around that unless they change your shift before you bang. If you think the FAA is magically just going to come up with a solution now to accommodate admin leave for every controller every week you're nuts.

 

[Soul_Controller]

You guys that keep bringing up "excused absence" to count towards your 12 hours of rest don't understand that is one thing we can say hands down will never happen. If you're in a paid state of leave or absence you're considered on duty as far as rest hours go.

Haven't you ever banged on the swing before your quick turn then try to flex in the next morning and it says "oops! You have less than 9 hours of rest!" even though you actually had 36 hours of rest. It doesn't matter. Multiple managers I've talked to say there's no way around that unless they change your shift before you bang. If you think the FAA is magically just going to come up with a solution now to accommodate admin leave for every controller every week you're nuts.

Im pretty sure that's just the way the order/fatigue MOU is written. It's not that big a deal to change with a new MOU. The thing I wonder about is how non-mid lines will react to other people getting time off.

 

[Spoony90]

Im pretty sure that's just the way the order/fatigue MOU is written. It's not that big a deal to change with a new MOU. The thing I wonder about is how non-mid lines will react to other people getting time off.

The same way people react now with the 3 hours of Pete leave during holidays

 

[KP-ATC]

Im pretty sure that's just the way the order/fatigue MOU is written. It's not that big a deal to change with a new MOU. The thing I wonder about is how non-mid lines will react to other people getting time off.

If that is part of the deal with a mid line, bid a mid line.

 

[Acatc2023]

The problem is the imposed rules simply don’t work for 24 hour facilities that have consistent OT. You either need to have straight shifts or first day mids. First day mids should be illegal. It completely ruins the 2nd RDO and if you have OT on the first RDO you have zero weekend and are also now in the building for parts of 7 days in a row.

Either way if anyone scheduled a mid takes SL there is no way to replace them as all of your day shifts are likely ineligible due to the 12 hour rule. The only way to combat this I see is to allow some sort of excused absence at the end of the current day shifts before a mid that counts towards the 12 hours. Example you work 530a-1330p, but get excused at 1030am, and come back at 1030pm for the mid. However now you need call in OT for swing shifts to cover it.

The rattler isn’t bad at all if you don’t have OT on your weekend but that doesn’t apply to many facilities anymore

I doubt the agency would give us excused absence at all. But they need to change 1 rule. We could do the first 2 days back are 10 hour days, then 8 hours, then 4, then the mid. But they would have to change how we have to work at least 7 ours for a shift.

 

[Spoony90]

I doubt the agency would give us excused absence at all. But they need to change 1 rule. We could do the first 2 days back are 10 hour days, then 8 hours, then 4, then the mid. But they would have to change how we have to work at least 7 ours for a shift.

This is what I been thinking. It also be a way to eliminate earning credit. But it make it real easy to bang on my 4 hour quick turn shift 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[ATOH]

Not sure how they get around NOT paying OT when going over 8 hours

Happens all the time with alternate work schedules. This would just be a different type of AWS

 

[bomber996]

Not sure how they get around NOT paying OT when going over 8 hours

We have some 4-10 lines in the spring and fall. Where are you seeing that hours over 8 need to be paid OT?

 

[Kramer]

Happens all the time with alternate work schedules

Can one be forced onto an AWS line?

 

[Acatc2023]

I doubt the agency would give us excused absence at all. But they need to change 1 rule. We could do the first 2 days back are 10 hour days, then 8 hours, then 4, then the mid. But they would have to change how we have to work at least 7 ours for a shift.

Hours.

Not sure how they get around NOT paying OT when going over 8 hours

there are so many different rules they have to change for this so work, this is just the tip of the iceberg. when we find one solution, another rule pops up that negates it.

 

[Kramer]

We have some 4-10 lines in the spring and fall. Where are you seeing that hours over 8 need to be paid OT?

I deleted my post. Sorry about that

 

[ABACUS]

Can one be forced onto an AWS line?

Nope

 

[bomber996]

Nope

Theoretically what's to stop a 4-10 line falling to low seniority? Wouldn't that effectively be a force into an AWS?

 

[GulfCharlie]

Hope you guys are ready for the “imposed measures” things are going crazy…

 

[32andBelow]

Theoretically what's to stop a 4-10 line falling to low seniority? Wouldn't that effectively be a force into an AWS?

I think any 4 10 line could fairly easily be turned into 5 8s