A80/MIA/ZOA MOU

[32andBelow]

Maybe, idk. Based on what I've seen from both sides of the coin, it's a lot easier to train a CPC from a tower going to a center than it is going from center to a tower.

Center to center takes like a couple months. It’s crazy how they can’t figure out center swaps

 

[Move78]

Maybe, idk. Based on what I've seen from both sides of the coin, it's a lot easier to train a CPC from a tower going to a center than it is going from center to a tower.

Oh 100% not easy to do center to tower. But that wasn’t actually my point, my point was ATMs be way dumb.

 

[Acquired Taste]

I can’t believe ZOA even got on this MOU bc they already have about 80 trainees lol

Yeah that's crazy, I didn't realize they had that many. I think the big problem is that out of those 80, how many actually want to be there? Maybe 25%? I think they want some people there who are going to stay there for life and they're starting to make progress in that department with this MOU and offering the now expanded list of places people can volunteer for from out of the academy.

 

[RalphBeast]

Yeah that's crazy, I didn't realize they had that many. I think the big problem is that out of those 80, how many actually want to be there? Maybe 25%? I think they want some people there who are going to stay there for life and they're starting to make progress in that department with this MOU and offering the now expanded list of places people can volunteer for from out of the academy.

Doesn't shock me ZOA would take anyone that applies - they SHOULD. They're probably not going to get many applicants and may as well start grabbing people ASA{ willing to stay for life even if it means temporarily being overloaded with trainees.

 

[bravounite33]

The thing is, anyone from ZNY putting in for A80 or MIA would be at the bottom of the list behind any terminal controller. That's just common sense, unless they already have a CTO which very few would.

Not necessarily. Radar experience would trump the terminal experience in my opinion but it's not up to me. I know ex-center guys at both facilities who didn't struggle with the transition at all.

 

[PerchPerkins]

Will they update the ERR Demand spreadsheet on the NATCA site before the NCEPT panel?

Probably not until the next NCEPT panel

 

[DankVectorz]

Not necessarily. Radar experience would trump the terminal experience in my opinion but it's not up to me. I know ex-center guys at both facilities who didn't struggle with the transition at all.

Idk what dude is talking about. Give me a busy center cpc-it over a low level tower flower any day. And why would A80 care if someone had a cto?

 

[TheShadow]

I can’t believe ZOA even got on this MOU bc they already have about 80 trainees lol

I’d be surprised if half those people checked out. In my ten years there my Area had over 25 trainees washout.

 

[RalphBeast]

Idk what dude is talking about. Give me a busy center cpc-it over a low level tower flower any day. And why would A80 care if someone had a cto?

Yeah I don't get his point. I don't work TRACON but would A80 or MIA approach really choose a low-level tower CPC over a ZNY controller that works a super busy/difficult domestic area?

I work at a level 12 Z in our busiest/most difficult area and over the years we've had a handful of CPCs go to level 12 towers and approaches... their success rate has been extremely high. I think only one legitimately washed and that was on LAX ground.

 

[Hallock36]

I went to A80 from ZME. ZME is about the easiest level 12 in the NAS, the fact that it is a 12 is a joke. We have decent success with Center controllers here. I think coming from any Z gives you a leg up on these low level tower controllers we've been getting because you have at least worked volume before. Center folks usually have a decent scan and have some experience with keeping control of the frequency. The hardest part is going to be learning a whole new interface system, and not being able to do jack shit with a STARS keyboard. Also the low altitude stuff is obviously way different. I probably vectored 5 aircraft to a final approach course in 7 years total at Memphis, and obviously never made a sequence. So that was a massive change.

 

[abc1234]

Yeah I don't get his point. I don't work TRACON but would A80 or MIA approach really choose a low-level tower CPC over a ZNY controller that works a super busy/difficult domestic area?

I work at a level 12 Z in our busiest/most difficult area and over the years we've had a handful of CPCs go to level 12 towers and approaches... their success rate has been extremely. I think only one legitimately washed and that was on LAX ground.

It's just my opinion, having been at both level 12 tower and center, and watched people go through training from all places.

What I was trying to say is the gap between tower and center is massive. Center is a lot easier for the average person to pick up, hence why new hires get sent to level 12 Z's and a lot of them make it. New hires getting sent to level 12 towers would be a disaster for the most part.

That being said, it comes down to the individual controller. With the way the selection process probably works, A80 or MIA can rank however they want, say they do put a ZNY controller over a PDK guy. There's no way of knowing who is a trash controller or not. We all have personal examples of people who went from tower to center or vice versa and were absolute garbage or flew through the program.

Maybe there should be some type of aptitude check to help improve success and staffing going into these high level/core facilities? Especially transitioning between enroute and terminal.

 

[Mr. Miner]

Yeah that's crazy, I didn't realize they had that many. I think the big problem is that out of those 80, how many actually want to be there? Maybe 25%? I think they want some people there who are going to stay there for life and they're starting to make progress in that department with this MOU and offering the now expanded list of places people can volunteer for from out of the academy.

25% is being generous.

One of the first questions trainees there get is, 'So what center did you actually want to go to?'

 

[Soul_Controller]

Maybe, idk. Based on what I've seen from both sides of the coin, it's a lot easier to train a CPC from a tower going to a center than it is going from center to a tower.

Its weird. I respect center controllers and what they do and the knowledge they have, but it's very much a different skill set and honestly center is not as close to controlling as they think. Once you get the hang of tower, it's bullshit. But getting that first CTO is way tougher than you'd think.