August (Q4) 2024

[RedTail]

New controllers at 7’s and below are making roughly 95k certified. That’s at a 7. 4’s are making 67k. There are soooo many jobs out there that pay that now. And everyone uses the argument well eventually they can make a lot of money but with NCEPT in play why would anyone take that risk of being stuck at a low level facility in today’s world.

This take depends man. I’m stuck at a 7 and probably going to crack 170, but I’d give this shit up to be back home. A few did 200+ last year

 

[BDUB]

This take depends man. I’m stuck at a 7 and probably going to crack 170, but I’d give this shit up to be back home. A few did 200+ last year

Absolutely wild that’s a stupid amount of overtime. But again that’s another downfall of the lower levels they are short staffed. Again a new controller coming into the agency forced to work 6 and 1’s is not enticing especially to the new generation but that’s just my thought 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[HurryUpandWait]

Did they cut this off right as DEI hires were at their peak? Serious question.

I’m not for sure when they stopped it. Mid 2010s ish if I had to guess

Again, the 85% rule needs to change if it can. Handcuffs 70% of the NAS while the agency deviates whenever they want.

Absolutely wild that’s a stupid amount of overtime. But again that’s another downfall of the lower levels they are short staffed. Again a new controller coming into the agency forced to work 6 and 1’s is not enticing especially to the new generation but that’s just my thought 🤷🏻‍♂️

What generation is that enticing for?

 

[BDUB]

What generation is that enticing for?

I mean facts lol. But older generations didn’t see the amount of work from home jobs the newer generation is seeing today. Or mediocre jobs that almost keep up with pay of low level ATC in a place they actually want to live…it’s just a different environment when looking at jobs now I think. The best case for the faa is a recession forcing people to stay where they are and new people to be estatic they have a job as crazy as that sounds 😳

 

[Nothanks]

New controllers at 7’s and below are making roughly 95k certified. That’s at a 7. 4’s are making 67k. There are soooo many jobs out there that pay that now. And everyone uses the argument well eventually they can make a lot of money but with NCEPT in play why would anyone take that risk of being stuck at a low level facility in today’s world.

They probably shouldn’t take the risk and just stay in the private sector and be at the whim of the overall economic environment. To each their own

 

[PlasticBag12]

This take depends man. I’m stuck at a 7 and probably going to crack 170, but I’d give this shit up to be back home. A few did 200+ last year

I’m stuck at a level 5. No hope of NCEPT working ever due to high turnover and wash rates. I did 350+ hours of OT last year and barely broke 100k. For the same amount of time spent at work 2 levels higher I could double my pay. Sign me TF up. To all newbies, DO NOT go to a low level unless staffing dictates otherwise.

 

[HurryUpandWait]

I’m stuck at a level 5. No hope of NCEPT working ever due to high turnover and wash rates. I did 350+ hours of OT last year and barely broke 100k. For the same amount of time spent at work 2 levels higher I could double my pay. Sign me TF up. To all newbies, DO NOT go to a low level unless staffing dictates otherwise.

The worst place to be in the NAS is 7 and below up/downs. Purgatory.

 

[PlasticBag12]

The worst place to be in the NAS is 7 and below up/downs. Purgatory.

You’re not wrong. But these facilities have to be staffed by unwilling souls as long as the FAA hangs on to them. At my shithole, we have a story of a guy from down the road who went to the academy and pleaded with the inept MFers running the show to be sent back to this low level shithole, only to be sent 4 hours away and still quit because his options were better with other career paths. Shortly after his stint at the academy and pleading to be sent back home, they put us on the volunteer list. I keep in touch with him. He’d still be a FAA employee and happy where he’s at for the time being had the FAA listened to and granted the initial request.

The placement change is cool for all the newbies. And the volunteer lists are cool, especially if you are from the areas and can start planning prior to academy graduation. But the FAA has to start hiring people locally for the low level black holes. There’s no other way around it. Controllers that pass the academy and get placed 1500 miles away from family and friends will find a way out by any means possible.

 

[Soul_Controller]

The worst place to be in the NAS is 7 and below up/downs. Purgatory.

It's a mix of things that cause this. You're usually somewhat isolated if you're a mid to low level up/down so you have to be self sufficient in a way that smaller facilities that are clustered next to big facilities aren't.

But that self sufficiency is partly why I blame low-level up/downs for their own predicaments:
-Most places have too many positions. I'm sorry dude, but you're a five... You don't need a standalone assist, or data, or clearance, or hand-off etc. I know you can't really fix your staffing number because the FAA is stupid (and Natca gets stupid about lowering CPC counts), but getting rid of useless positions lowers your training hours and checkout times.
-A decent amount of these places are exactly the reason why the NTI exists. Working hour on hour off and sacrificing trainees. Now that you actually have to train, people fucking complain about having to do their jobs.
-Plus those places have high turnover at all their levels (flm, atm, and rep) so there is no institutional knowledge being kept, which means these problems just linger. Supes suck at TRBs. The training programs atrophy, the SOP gets outdated etc.

There are six and seven updowns that release on NCEPT regularly. If you're not one of them, then fix your facility. No one is going to come save you. Not Rich, not Nick, not JD. Learn the contract. Learn the training order. Learn the point three. Network with reps at other successful facilities. Figure out your facilty's weaknesses and help out. People shit on collaboration, but at a small place, that's all you have.

 

[Jayyy Jayyy]

It's a mix of things that cause this. You're usually somewhat isolated if you're a mid to low level up/down so you have to be self sufficient in a way that smaller facilities that are clustered next to big facilities aren't.

But that self sufficiency is partly why I blame low-level up/downs for their own predicaments:
-Most places have too many positions. I'm sorry dude, but you're a five... You don't need a standalone assist, or data, or clearance, or hand-off etc. I know you can't really fix your staffing number because the FAA is stupid (and Natca gets stupid about lowering CPC counts), but getting rid of useless positions lowers your training hours and checkout times.
-A decent amount of these places are exactly the reason why the NTI exists. Working hour on hour off and sacrificing trainees. Now that you actually have to train, people fucking complain about having to do their jobs.
-Plus those places have high turnover at all their levels (flm, atm, and rep) so there is no institutional knowledge being kept, which means these problems just linger. Supes suck at TRBs. The training programs atrophy, the SOP gets outdated etc.

There are six and seven updowns that release on NCEPT regularly. If you're not one of them, then fix your facility. No one is going to come save you. Not Rich, not Nick, not JD. Learn the contract. Learn the training order. Learn the point three. Network with reps at other successful facilities. Figure out your facilty's weaknesses and help out. People shit on collaboration, but at a small place, that's all you have.

No facility is going to open themselves up to the possibility of a downgrade [by eliminating useless/unnecessary extra positions] just to appease arguably the worst transfer process on the planet.

I’ll take your larger point, but my facility is your standard level 7 up/down career deathtrap. Our tower is a joke, but radar is busy enough to justify the existence of all positions. Hence why you have the long training times and staffing requirements that we have. We’re not a five.

And then idiots like me make it a mission to get people certified, take on extra duties, volunteer for committees, burn personal leave on Union travel, etc all to have my attempts at ERR’ing fail miserably because of our lottery-style transfer system.

I get what you’re saying but we just need more bodies. A fast checkout…or two would be fantastic. As horrific as NCEPT is, if we hired more people and had better placement it would make a world of difference.

 

[PlasticBag12]

It's a mix of things that cause this. You're usually somewhat isolated if you're a mid to low level up/down so you have to be self sufficient in a way that smaller facilities that are clustered next to big facilities aren't.

But that self sufficiency is partly why I blame low-level up/downs for their own predicaments:
-Most places have too many positions. I'm sorry dude, but you're a five... You don't need a standalone assist, or data, or clearance, or hand-off etc. I know you can't really fix your staffing number because the FAA is stupid (and Natca gets stupid about lowering CPC counts), but getting rid of useless positions lowers your training hours and checkout times.
-A decent amount of these places are exactly the reason why the NTI exists. Working hour on hour off and sacrificing trainees. Now that you actually have to train, people fucking complain about having to do their jobs.
-Plus those places have high turnover at all their levels (flm, atm, and rep) so there is no institutional knowledge being kept, which means these problems just linger. Supes suck at TRBs. The training programs atrophy, the SOP gets outdated etc.

There are six and seven updowns that release on NCEPT regularly. If you're not one of them, then fix your facility. No one is going to come save you. Not Rich, not Nick, not JD. Learn the contract. Learn the training order. Learn the point three. Network with reps at other successful facilities. Figure out your facilty's weaknesses and help out. People shit on collaboration, but at a small place, that's all you have.

We’ve got positions that are “positions” to CPC but literally staffed 0% of the day unless necessary or somebody requests. Management refuses to do anything about this and we’re told it’s an uphill battle to get rid of these dumbass positions to alleviate staffing issues.

I agree some harm is self inflicted. Long breaks and leave ring a bell here. But we train every trainable hour of every day. There are no hour on/hour off shifts. Bad weather and someone is near checkout, it won’t help me watch them sequence or run pattern when it’s IMC and the traffic is shit. It’s a double edge sword to watch my trainee burn through 2.5 hours a day to get near checkout hours when nothing is happening to help me see they’ve learned from their deficiencies. The one size fits all bandaid solution doesn’t work here.

High turnover could be solved with people that want to stay local or higher pay. There should be zero reason why somebody could go fly skydivers part time and make as much as CPCs at the level airspace they’re departing from. NCEPT, supe bids, all the deviations that are approved come from people that are unhappy being in the area and want to be closer to home or chase the paycheck. There is a number you can pay where I’d be happy to be 1500 miles away from my dying family, and currently it’s not even coming close.

To call this a local issue is extremely damaging. Not all low levels are shit, but they usually have semi permanent staffing to back up their washout/transfer rate. To take short breaks, train for years on end, and wind up in the very same position you started in is disheartening and needs to be fixed.

 

[SquawkHijack]

If someone is not content with where they are and they’re going to quit regardless…if they can’t get a job in the city they want to be in because the lvl facility they came from is too low then they will just find another job and the faa loses a already certified controller to the system they created

THIS! The FAA keeps shooting itself in the foot by gutting ways for controllers to move around and it does nothing but result in more resignations. The agency is never going to learn.

I get what you’re saying but we just need more bodies. A fast checkout…or two would be fantastic. As horrific as NCEPT is, if we hired more people and had better placement it would make a world of difference.

I think you’re looking at this backwards, brother. NCEPT is definitely meant for a good staffing situation, but let’s face it, that’s something we aren’t going to see for a very long time. The transfer process needs to be as dynamic as the hiring process. We shouldn’t have to wait around for another episode of the FAA’s next top knee-jerk reaction all because they can’t figure out how to get more through the academy. It’s taken a literal act of Congress and we still haven’t seen or heard of any changes on the horizon.

 

[HurryUpandWait]

It's a mix of things that cause this. You're usually somewhat isolated if you're a mid to low level up/down so you have to be self sufficient in a way that smaller facilities that are clustered next to big facilities aren't.

But that self sufficiency is partly why I blame low-level up/downs for their own predicaments:
-Most places have too many positions. I'm sorry dude, but you're a five... You don't need a standalone assist, or data, or clearance, or hand-off etc. I know you can't really fix your staffing number because the FAA is stupid (and Natca gets stupid about lowering CPC counts), but getting rid of useless positions lowers your training hours and checkout times.
-A decent amount of these places are exactly the reason why the NTI exists. Working hour on hour off and sacrificing trainees. Now that you actually have to train, people fucking complain about having to do their jobs.
-Plus those places have high turnover at all their levels (flm, atm, and rep) so there is no institutional knowledge being kept, which means these problems just linger. Supes suck at TRBs. The training programs atrophy, the SOP gets outdated etc.

There are six and seven updowns that release on NCEPT regularly. If you're not one of them, then fix your facility. No one is going to come save you. Not Rich, not Nick, not JD. Learn the contract. Learn the training order. Learn the point three. Network with reps at other successful facilities. Figure out your facilty's weaknesses and help out. People shit on collaboration, but at a small place, that's all you have.

Last paragraph sounds good and all but did you already forget what you just said in the paragraph above. You can do all the extra work that you aren’t compensated for to implement change just for a new ATM to come in and flip it on its head.

Our washout rate is terrible since NTI was implemented for whatever reason. I agree our cpc number should be lowered but natca will never agree to that. It is what it is, you can do all you can to try and improve the facility you’re at but at the end of the day you are still handcuffed by the system you are in.

Which is another reason why it’s shocking Mick hasn’t received any criticism for ncept. Has he ever posted a video about it? Leadership is poor in all areas right now.

 

[HurryUpandWait]

No facility is going to open themselves up to the possibility of a downgrade [by eliminating useless/unnecessary extra positions] just to appease arguably the worst transfer process on the planet.

I’ll take your larger point, but my facility is your standard level 7 up/down career deathtrap. Our tower is a joke, but radar is busy enough to justify the existence of all positions. Hence why you have the long training times and staffing requirements that we have. We’re not a five.

And then idiots like me make it a mission to get people certified, take on extra duties, volunteer for committees, burn personal leave on Union travel, etc all to have my attempts at ERR’ing fail miserably because of our lottery-style transfer system.

I get what you’re saying but we just need more bodies. A fast checkout…or two would be fantastic. As horrific as NCEPT is, if we hired more people and had better placement it would make a world of difference.

NCEPT is a system for a staffed NAS. Of course NATCA and FAA refuse to adjust the system to a NAS that is 90% understaffed.

 

[S.T.O.P.]

Does anyone think it’s weird that the PNA is like 88% which indicates that on average, the NAS is staffed fine? It’s almost like there’s some big things missing in the SWB

 

[HurryUpandWait]

Does anyone think it’s weird that the PNA is like 88% which indicates that on average, the NAS is staffed fine? It’s almost like there’s some big things missing in the SWB

Because they judge staffing on “projected” percentages instead of “actual” percentages.

Which is why we have 1,000 less CPCs than a decade ago and netted an additional grand total of 10 CPCs from last year.

Projected always looks good but the reality is the actual percentages.

 

[Move78]

Does anyone think it’s weird that the PNA is like 88% which indicates that on average, the NAS is staffed fine? It’s almost like there’s some big things missing in the SWB

It’s a projected national average. Actual national average is 80

 

[S.T.O.P.]

Because they judge staffing on “projected” percentages instead of “actual” percentages.

Which is why we have 1,000 less CPCs than a decade ago and netted an additional grand total of 10 CPCs from last year.

Projected always looks good but the reality is the actual percentages.

It’s a projected national average. Actual national average is 80

Facts, projected never really looks bad, it’s always actual that is low. Also, how are facilities needing more PNA pickups ranked lower on priority lists than facilities with 0 PNA pickups 💀

 

[Move78]

Facts, projected never really looks bad, it’s always actual that is low. Also, how are facilities needing more PNA pickups ranked lower on priority lists than facilities with 0 PNA pickups 💀

Because the DLA is dogshit

 

[S.T.O.P.]

When is JCF closing? They are number 2 on the priority list.