Austin Incident

[Dousand24]

First, the idiot in Vegas and now this jabroni… Thanks NTI

 

[Smitty]

First, the idiot in Vegas and now this jabroni… Thanks NTI

bro there are still controllers who say w a straight face "the VGT controller did nothing wrong". We have a severe crisis in this career field. Lot of mofos stuck on stupid. would be funny if it wasnt for the dead people

 

[DADDYSbabyBIRD]

Dam, terrible controlling. Obviously not going to work in the first place, didn't even try to expedite anything... or fix anything. If the rumors I have heard (similar to what's been hinted at here) then this guy should be fired or at very least taken off the radios... but that won't happen, just like the other trash controllers out there. It seems that every place has one or two people who everyone knows shouldn't have been certified. Everyone talks about it, we all can identify who they are. When shit happens they are the first person you think who did it and you're usually right. A facility I used to work at had 4 wrong surface landings in a year... all had the same trash controller working, all had parts of the situations that the controller did to fuck up like not hearing a wrong runway read back or clearing someone for the wrong runway... we all know she's unsafe and terrible and joke about how she got certfied... but nothing will ever be done about it

 

[A2J]

Idk if it’s been brought up yet in this beautiful thread, but I think one of the wildest aspects of this is the fact that this was a cat III ILS, and the critical area was 100% not protected in the slightest. Cat III is essentially an auto land approach down to absolute mins, so the fact that the 737 was even near the runway to begin with baffles me. Ofc 2 increasing to 3, not using the word “immediately” and so many other things were screwed, but none of that should have even been given the opportunity to happen

 

[slater]

Idk if it’s been brought up yet in this beautiful thread, but I think one of the wildest aspects of this is the fact that this was a cat III ILS, and the critical area was 100% not protected in the slightest. Cat III is essentially an auto land approach down to absolute mins, so the fact that the 737 was even near the runway to begin with baffles me. Ofc 2 increasing to 3, not using the word “immediately” and so many other things were screwed, but none of that should have even been given the opportunity to happen

The critical area was on the opposite side of the runway from what I've found. About 1000 feet up on the left from the threshold.

 

[Horno]

Does 2 increasing to 3 even matter when you have that divergence of 170 and 080 both in left turns??

 

[A2J]

The critical area was on the opposite side of the runway from what I've found. About 1000 feet up on the left from the threshold by the other taxiway.

But still, the runway is definitely a part of it too. Their airfield diagram doesn't show one, but the runway is always going to be a part of it.

Does 2 increasing to 3 even matter when you have that divergence of 170 and 080 both in left turns??

Yes, you can have aircraft closer than 2 if using visual but with 1/8 sm that ain't gonna hold up in a court of law

 

[slater]

But still, the runway is definitely a part of it too. Their airfield diagram doesn't show one, but the runway is always going to be a part of it.

Good point. Now I'm intrigued.

But still, the runway is definitely a part of it too. Their airfield diagram doesn't show one, but the runway is always going to be a part of it.

Here is a a good view of the critical area breakdown starting at 9:30 into the video till 10:30 on the video.

 

[Phanatical]

Yes, you can have aircraft closer than 2 if using visual but with 1/8 sm that ain't gonna hold up in a court of law

this is the damning part about the whole "2 increasing to 3" argument...

5-8-4 Note 2: Consider the effect surface conditions, such as ice, snow, and other precipitation, may have on known aircraft performance characteristics, and the influence these conditions may have on the pilot’s ability to commence takeoff roll in a timely manner.

 

[A2J]

Here is a a good view of the critical area breakdown starting at 9:30 into the video till 10:30 on the video.

I just saw this video, super descriptive. Crazy how close it was

 

[3rdgen]

Maybe in his tenure as a trainee he only learned that you need 1000ft and they didn't quite get to not climbing someone through another plane. At least that dude that had the ODO debacle at BHM can breathe now that there's a new "Worst Squeeze Play King"

This sounds exactly what the BHM controller would say to not be king anymore! Welcome to the chat BHM controller!

 

[Phanatical]

Another point to consider… in order to get 2 increasing to 3 in a situation where the arriving aircraft is doing 150kts and on a 3 mile final already, the departing aircraft would have to go from holding short to takeoff roll in 24 seconds in LIFR conditions.

Not. Happening.

 

[ChuckNovember]

On a positive note this is a refreshing break from everyone bitching about NCEPT.

 

[slater]

Another point to consider… in order to get 2 increasing to 3 in a situation where the arriving aircraft is doing 150kts and on a 3 mile final already, the departing aircraft would have to go from holding short to takeoff roll in 24 seconds in LIFR conditions.

Not. Happening.

A 767 is doing 160kts & slowing on final and it'll take 1.5 mins from take-off clearance to reach 6000 and airborne. At 3 mile final is a DAT over the runway.

Another point to consider… in order to get 2 increasing to 3 in a situation where the arriving aircraft is doing 150kts and on a 3 mile final already, the departing aircraft would have to go from holding short to takeoff roll in 24 seconds in LIFR conditions.

Not. Happening.

I always consider a new take off clearance from holding short 1.5 mins to 6k and airborne with wiggle-room. Generally inside 5 miles requires asking if they can accept an immediate takeoff. But why push it? I feel like he forgot or lost track of time, because you hear talking in the background.

 

[Phanatical]

A 767 is doing 160kts & slowing on final and it'll take 1.5 mins from take-off clearance to reach 6000 and airborne. At 3 mile final is a DAT over the runway.

I always consider a new take off clearance from holding short 1.5 mins to 6k and airborne with wiggle-room. Generally inside 5 miles requires asking if they can accept an immediate takeoff. But why push it? I feel like he forgot or lost track of time, because you hear talking in the background.

Agreed, I use 90 seconds as well for my marker. Guess how long it was from takeoff clearance until SWA was airborne? Hmm…

 

[WavesAndClouds]

A 767 is doing 160kts & slowing on final and it'll take 1.5 mins from take-off clearance to reach 6000 and airborne. At 3 mile final is a DAT over the runway.

I always consider a new take off clearance from holding short 1.5 mins to 6k and airborne with wiggle-room. Generally inside 5 miles requires asking if they can accept an immediate takeoff. But why push it? I feel like he forgot or lost track of time, because you hear talking in the background.

Same runway sep can’t be applied in IFR weather if I am not mistaken. So the plane needs to clear the runway.

Also a good technique thing…putting the traffic on final bit at the start of your transmission.

Moral of the story is don’t try squeeze plays in dogshit weather. Best things about planes on the ground. They can stay put.

 

[wrench978]

The SWA pilot acknowledged the traffic on final… and the FDX asked the tower to confirm landing clearance… I would have liked to hear the SWA pilot say unable to the takeoff clearance so they don’t have to rush.

At least the FDX crew had some situational awareness…

 

[Smitty]

Good morning to everyone except anyone complicit in certifying the Austin idiot who tried to kill FDX & SWA.

Blow that Whistle.

 

[A2J]

Good morning to everyone except anyone complicit in certifying the Austin idiot who tried to kill FDX & SWA.

Blow that Whistle.

This energy tho ?

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

Same runway sep can’t be applied in IFR weather if I am not mistaken. So the plane needs to clear the runway.

Also a good technique thing…putting the traffic on final bit at the start of your transmission.

Moral of the story is don’t try squeeze plays in dogshit weather. Best things about planes on the ground. They can stay put.

3-9-6 a. “ … if you can determine distances by reference to suitable landmarks … “

With 1/8 sm vis, I can’t imagine you meet the criteria. I would also assume controller applied visual separation would apply here as well? But maybe I’m only familiar with it because we don’t have a radar in the tower. Nonetheless, I’ve held departures with an arrival on a 10 mile final because I can’t even see the runway environment. Admittedly that would probably be different if I had a radar but I’m not trying to fuck around and find out.

I’d rather people think I’m a shitty controller for holding someone than the entire NAS know I’m a shitty controller by sending it. No need to be a hero and damn sure don’t need to prove anything.