General Questions

Termine

Trusted Contributor
Messages
364
Another question... did anyone ever say how to know exactly what regional HR to send the ERR to? For example ROC is in western New York and the Eastern Region covers all of New York, but it's listed under Cleveland District on the KSN page and Cleveland is in the Great Lakes region.
 

Shikaka

Legendary Member
Messages
2,304
Another question... did anyone ever say how to know exactly what regional HR to send the ERR to? For example ROC is in western New York and the Eastern Region covers all of New York, but it's listed under Cleveland District on the KSN page and Cleveland is in the Great Lakes region.

Honestly they continously change our it at least feels like it. Send it to both is the best solution.
 

slim

Active Member
Messages
103
It doesn’t matter. A coworker of mine sent it to our current facility's region and I sent mine to the receiving facility’s region. They all punch the paperwork into a national database.
 

Shikaka

Legendary Member
Messages
2,304
It doesn’t matter. A coworker of mine sent it to our current facility's region and I sent mine to the receiving facility’s region. They all punch the paperwork into a national database.
Some regions HR won't do it though, they'll just send you a confusing map with acronyms no one but them understand and expect you to correct it.
 

Here4thedrama

Member
Messages
53
It doesn’t matter. A coworker of mine sent it to our current facility's region and I sent mine to the receiving facility’s region. They all punch the paperwork into a national database.
I haven’t seen this and wouldn’t trust that it doesn’t matter, but many times the HR will at least tell you it’s wrong. Some will give you the correct HR and information to send it to. Some will just say that’s not me. I’ve definitely seen people send to more than one to be safe.
 

Caerbannog

Member
Messages
39
I haven’t seen this and wouldn’t trust that it doesn’t matter, but many times the HR will at least tell you it’s wrong. Some will give you the correct HR and information to send it to. Some will just say that’s not me. I’ve definitely seen people send to more than one to be safe.
My garbage fax machines at work forced me to simply mail them the old fashioned way. This way you have tracking and know they're getting there.
 

Shikaka

Legendary Member
Messages
2,304
My garbage fax machines at work forced me to simply mail them the old fashioned way. This way you have tracking and know they're getting there.
If fax isn't working you can send them via encrypted email, just let them know the fax is busted. You can get a read receipt as well.
 

Termine

Trusted Contributor
Messages
364
Now I'm looking at the wiki section on this site and trying to reconcile it with the Facility Status and Priority list on the KSN, just so I can get a better handle on the process. Let's look at ZMP for example. The information on this site says it was updated October 28 2020, which corresponds to the November FY21 PPT run, as I understand it—so the numbers should match, right?

On this site, here's what I'm seeing:
Actual AOB CPCs needed: Cat 1: 13, Cat 2: 1
Additional net projected gains needed: Cat 1: 8, Cat 2: 0
AOB above: 1
Projected above: 6
Selections: 38
Releases: 5

On the Facility Priority List (which I think is from October 28?) I'm seeing:
Possible gains: 11
Possible losses: 5

On the November PPT, I'm seeing:
Possible gains to nat'l avg: 12
Possible gains to target: 49
Possible losses: 1

Can someone explain to me like I'm dumb where the discrepancy comes from? Or point me to where I can educate myself? The trainee/CPC ratio is below 30% so that isn't it, or is it? (Will they only staff up to the 30% ratio and then stop mid-NCEPT?)
 

MJ

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
2,569
Now I'm looking at the wiki section on this site and trying to reconcile it with the Facility Status and Priority list on the KSN, just so I can get a better handle on the process. Let's look at ZMP for example. The information on this site says it was updated October 28 2020, which corresponds to the November FY21 PPT run, as I understand it—so the numbers should match, right?

On this site, here's what I'm seeing:
Actual AOB CPCs needed: Cat 1: 13, Cat 2: 1
Additional net projected gains needed: Cat 1: 8, Cat 2: 0
AOB above: 1
Projected above: 6
Selections: 38
Releases: 5

On the Facility Priority List (which I think is from October 28?) I'm seeing:
Possible gains: 11
Possible losses: 5

On the November PPT, I'm seeing:
Possible gains to nat'l avg: 12
Possible gains to target: 49
Possible losses: 1

Can someone explain to me like I'm dumb where the discrepancy comes from? Or point me to where I can educate myself? The trainee/CPC ratio is below 30% so that isn't it, or is it? (Will they only staff up to the 30% ratio and then stop mid-NCEPT?)
The priority list only lines up with the ppt for the ncept panel when they set the final numbers. I don't remember off-hand but I don't think the timestamps are the same in between.

For the selection numbers on the wiki pages, I used a formula to account for the ncept rules, rather then just the raw ppt numbers. Additional selections for 9-12 facs etc. But being as how they make up rules on the fly and apply them inconsistently, it's not as useful as it used to be. the numbers on app.pointsixtyfive.com are the raw ppt numbers.

Not sure if the trainee ratio is tallied during the panel. I would think so, but I can't point to a reference.
 

Robert619

Member
FAA
Messages
5
Facility
CRP Corpus Christi Tower
I have a quick question regarding NCEPT. Last year my facility was cat 2, and we could have let 2 people go. We were told from our Facrep that the ATM said we're only letting one go. We have alot of trainees and we will be100 percent staffed from the project numbers. Im just curious if the ATM has the power to hold people hold people even if we are eligible to let people go according to the MOU? any insight would be appreciated.
 

32andBelow

Legendary Member
Messages
4,799
I have a quick question regarding NCEPT. Last year my facility was cat 2, and we could have let 2 people go. We were told from our Facrep that the ATM said we're only letting one go. We have alot of trainees and we will be100 percent staffed from the project numbers. Im just curious if the ATM has the power to hold people hold people even if we are eligible to let people go according to the MOU? any insight would be appreciated.
There was a cpc to trainee calculation too.
 

ZP

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
193
Your ATM has the power to defer a transfer up until a certain amount of time as long as they can justify it. However, the exact number on how many bodies you can lose is right off the Priority Placement Tool. As 32andBelow stated, a CPC/Trainee ratio could be one of those justifications.
 

Robert619

Member
FAA
Messages
5
Facility
CRP Corpus Christi Tower
There was a cpc to trainee calculation too.
Yes there is, and next panel we let a person go without getting any new trainees, or qualifying any of our trainees. I believe we were at the 30 percent cpc/dev ratio. I just wasn't aware the the ATM could override the NECPT mou.

Your ATM has the power to defer a transfer up until a certain amount of time as long as they can justify it. However, the exact number on how many bodies you can lose is right off the Priority Placement Tool. As 32andBelow stated, a CPC/Trainee ratio could be one of those justifications.
Ok thanks guy, I appreciate it.
 

Shikaka

Legendary Member
Messages
2,304
Yes there is, and next panel we let a person go without getting any new trainees, or qualifying any of our trainees. I believe we were at the 30 percent cpc/dev ratio. I just wasn't aware the the ATM could override the NECPT mou.
Another thing to consider for in the future, trainees don't have to certify to get a release. It's based off a projected AOB of CPCs, how many trainees are EXPECTED to certify within your facility's training rotation, minus the expected losses gives you your projected AOB. Short training time, and a bunch of trainees, congrats you have a release or two.
 

Super Salt

I’m a dingus.
Staff member
I ♥ pointSixtyFive
Messages
769
Though it should go without saying, the “temporary rules” instilled back in July/August of 2019 with the ratios now being included with NCEPT transfers, may very well be different or changed once the next panel is actually held.

Given the training hold(s) that have taken place due to COVID, there is literally no telling what new “temporary rules” the next panel will have. Or even when that panel will be.

It’s all guess-work from here on in. No one knows what arbitrary percentages or ratios will be needed to deem a facility eligible for release and/or gain. You’re better off betting for a management position via USAJOBS or buying Mega Millions lottery tickets.
 

Logical_Mongoose

Trusted Contributor
Messages
156
Though it should go without saying, the “temporary rules” instilled back in July/August of 2019 with the ratios now being included with NCEPT transfers, may very well be different or changed once the next panel is actually held.

Given the training hold(s) that have taken place due to COVID, there is literally no telling what new “temporary rules” the next panel will have. Or even when that panel will be.

It’s all guess-work from here on in. No one knows what arbitrary percentages or ratios will be needed to deem a facility eligible for release and/or gain. You’re better off betting for a management position via USAJOBS or buying Mega Millions lottery tickets.
Makes me real glad I managed to snag a support specialist job this summer off USAJOBS. Old facility was able to release multiple for a full year without any of our tickets getting pulled via NCEPT; 6 months since I left and the other 3 there I know with multiple packets out still haven't gotten anything. God only knows what "dynamic decisions" they will be making from here on out.
 

Move78

Forum Sage
Messages
1,080
Another thing to consider for in the future, trainees don't have to certify to get a release. It's based off a projected AOB of CPCs, how many trainees are EXPECTED to certify within your facility's training rotation, minus the expected losses gives you your projected AOB. Short training time, and a bunch of trainees, congrats you have a release or two.
This is untrue. You need AOB above 85% and projected above 85%. Most facilities are projected above 85% especially if you receive new hire placements in any way. AOB (requires certs) is what is keeping most controllers from being release eligible.

I have a quick question regarding NCEPT. Last year my facility was cat 2, and we could have let 2 people go. We were told from our Facrep that the ATM said we're only letting one go. We have alot of trainees and we will be100 percent staffed from the project numbers. Im just curious if the ATM has the power to hold people hold people even if we are eligible to let people go according to the MOU? any insight would be appreciated.
Your ATM and Facrep have 0 control over outbound selections. Cat2 is at or before 12 months after selection. If you’re selected your ATM can hold you for 12 months at most. Any deviations from the MOU have to be approved by VP of ATS.
The 30% cpc to trainee ratio was an inbound restriction so it could cause a facility to have less selections but is irrelevant to release eligibility.
If the PPT displays 2 losses than you can lose 2.

Your ATM has the power to defer a transfer up until a certain amount of time as long as they can justify it. However, the exact number on how many bodies you can lose is right off the Priority Placement Tool. As 32andBelow stated, a CPC/Trainee ratio could be one of those justifications.
They can defer it for 12 months for cat 2. 3 months for cat 1. They need 0 justifications within those time frames.
 
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