I do feel welcome - a couple quick questions?

[Bob44zw]

I got a welcome message six seconds after I logged in. Thanks!

Question one - if I am number one for the runway, should I ask for a short approach? If so, what defines a short approach?
Or - how far out on downwind should I go for an approach when I am number one and have not asked for a short approach?

Background - I never ask. When the tower asks, I expedite - 100 mph directly to the runway. Slow down sideways.
A Cherokee-requested short approach is base leg one mile beyond the threshold - enough room to get me in first.

Question 2 - cleared to turn on a diagonal runway. Do I taxi clear of that runway, or do I stop on it, without benefit of hold lines, and switch to ground? The AIM is ambiguous. The AOPA says stop on the diagonal runway. So far, I taxi across the hold lines. I can change, but it will take some convincing. The AIM does say clear the hold lines, but it does not say which hold lines.

 

[jdatc]

No - it was empty airspace above a closed Marine base. I transit it once a week in my Decathlon without problems, most of the time with Marine controllers. When they are closed, the only traffic is aircraft like mine. I had a clearance, but he took it away when he discovered I was a local flight. And yeah, I am a blistering 110 kt Decathlon, but that was not his reason.

Well, I guess the only one that knows then is him.

Unless you did something bad the last time he worked you, and then he said 'oh wait, not this guy!' and terminated it....I kid, I kid...

However, some of us do remember certain local pilots for different reasons. I'm not saying this is the case, but there are generally certain local pilots that either earn or burn your trust on a regular basis as an approach controller.

It's a big reason I would say a majority of controllers don't give through clearances, because they have gotten burned bad enough. After the one guy you were nice enough to give the through clearance to who was going to be right out after a touch and go, stops, lands has a burger, gets gas and locks up your uncontrolled field for IFR traffic, that bridge is burned! There is no Santa! Nothing will be the same again!

I'm sure back in the day I was that pilot to many controllers in Florida. Sorry to all. Glad the majority of them are retired now!

 

[COWTOWN]

No - it was empty airspace above a closed Marine base. I transit it once a week in my Decathlon without problems, most of the time with Marine controllers. When they are closed, the only traffic is aircraft like mine. I had a clearance, but he took it away when he discovered I was a local flight. And yeah, I am a blistering 110 kt Decathlon, but that was not his reason.

So the tracon held you out of the towers surface area essentially? Probably something was going on that wasn't passed along to you is my best guess.

 

[tink]

No - it was empty airspace above a closed Marine base. I transit it once a week in my Decathlon without problems, most of the time with Marine controllers. When they are closed, the only traffic is aircraft like mine. I had a clearance, but he took it away when he discovered I was a local flight. And yeah, I am a blistering 110 kt Decathlon, but that was not his reason.

Do you know why it was rescinded? i ask bc you say “that was not his reason“, like you may know the reason. Only being a local user and what, he wanted you to fly around it? Do you transit the same time every week? Was it Sunday? I think I know which airspace you’re talking about and the base may open on Sunday afternoons for recoveries. I haven’t worked near there in 5 years though so I may be wrong.

 

[Bob44zw]

Tink - you are correct - NKX. And he told me he was too busy. I could accept that, except he had already given me a squawk. And I did wait for the tower to open for my flight - uneventful and friendly. Usually, SoCal is polite, friendly, and helpful, and I say "thanks."

JD - I am not that guy. When ATC says "do something" I do it. I refrain from arguing on the frequency, and in my airline days I would jump an FO who would try that. My approach is to revert to the telephone, and ask here among experts. If that doesn't work, I have a letter drafted to Capt. Dickson. I am in contact with the tracon now.
My tower knows me by my first name. And gives me early crosswinds and short approaches. Yay!

 

[jdatc]

Tink - you are correct - NKX. And he told me he was too busy. I could accept that, except he had already given me a squawk. And I did wait for the tower to open for my flight - uneventful and friendly. Usually, SoCal is polite, friendly, and helpful, and I say "thanks."

JD - I am not that guy. When ATC says "do something" I do it. I refrain from arguing on the frequency, and in my airline days I would jump an FO who would try that. My approach is to revert to the telephone, and ask here among experts. If that doesn't work, I have a letter drafted to Capt. Dickson. I am in contact with the tracon now.
My tower knows me by my first name. And gives me early crosswinds and short approaches. Yay!

You have an excellent approach to it then, I commend you. As a controller, knowing who the good local pilots are always helps and gives you and them an edge in a lot of situations.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Tink - you are correct - NKX. And he told me he was too busy. I could accept that, except he had already given me a squawk. And I did wait for the tower to open for my flight - uneventful and friendly. Usually, SoCal is polite, friendly, and helpful, and I say "thanks."

JD - I am not that guy. When ATC says "do something" I do it. I refrain from arguing on the frequency, and in my airline days I would jump an FO who would try that. My approach is to revert to the telephone, and ask here among experts. If that doesn't work, I have a letter drafted to Capt. Dickson. I am in contact with the tracon now.
My tower knows me by my first name. And gives me early crosswinds and short approaches. Yay!

If as a satellite controller I am getting too busy and cannot control the frequency, IFR aircraft come first. I will terminate flight following, disallow practice approaches... those are as traffic permits duties.

 

[Shikaka]

Tink - you are correct - NKX. And he told me he was too busy. I could accept that, except he had already given me a squawk. And I did wait for the tower to open for my flight - uneventful and friendly. Usually, SoCal is polite, friendly, and helpful, and I say "thanks."

JD - I am not that guy. When ATC says "do something" I do it. I refrain from arguing on the frequency, and in my airline days I would jump an FO who would try that. My approach is to revert to the telephone, and ask here among experts. If that doesn't work, I have a letter drafted to Capt. Dickson. I am in contact with the tracon now.
My tower knows me by my first name. And gives me early crosswinds and short approaches. Yay!

Bob, you fly for GBA out of RNO by any chance, we got a Bob, good guy pretty much his airspace when he comes through.

 

[Bob44zw]

No, but I flew a lot of BAC111 and 737s in and out of there. I loved the night landings on 25.

Thanks for following this. I just heard from ATC QC, and I am pleased with the resolution.

 

[Bob44zw]

I just got a telephone call from a supervisor. I am pleased with the resolution, and the almost instantaneous response! These guys care! They want the system to work.
I will write Capt. Dickson, but it will be a "thank you" note.

Now if I could just get Serco to respond as quickly . . .

 

[COWTOWN]

Tink - you are correct - NKX. And he told me he was too busy. I could accept that, except he had already given me a squawk. And I did wait for the tower to open for my flight - uneventful and friendly. Usually, SoCal is polite, friendly, and helpful, and I say "thanks."

JD - I am not that guy. When ATC says "do something" I do it. I refrain from arguing on the frequency, and in my airline days I would jump an FO who would try that. My approach is to revert to the telephone, and ask here among experts. If that doesn't work, I have a letter drafted to Capt. Dickson. I am in contact with the tracon now.
My tower knows me by my first name. And gives me early crosswinds and short approaches. Yay!

My bets are they were busy for a minute then forgot about you unfortunately.

 

[Bob44zw]

Nope. I was explicitly refused service. Management says that is not the way it works. I get a callback position. And it has to be in order. Yes, we all forget stuff, and that is forgiveable. This guy turned me down because he didn't like my destination.

 

[tink]

Nope. I was explicitly refused service. Management says that is not the way it works. I get a callback position. And it has to be in order. Yes, we all forget stuff, and that is forgiveable. This guy turned me down because he didn't like my destination.

Glad it has been resolved to your satisfaction. Sorry it had to happen in the first place. I worked at SEE for years and I miss it!

 

[COWTOWN]

Nope. I was explicitly refused service. Management says that is not the way it works. I get a callback position. And it has to be in order. Yes, we all forget stuff, and that is forgiveable. This guy turned me down because he didn't like my destination.

Sorry man! Some people in 'that building' make everyone look bad. Every area has someone like that unfortunately.

 

[Bob44zw]

Yes, but when it is resolved this quickly and easily, it makes the entire ATC look like good guys! I am impressed.

I am working on another related issue with a Serco tower. They pulled the tapes a week ago, and so far I have heard nothing. Amazing that the feds can do in 30 minutes what Serco cannot do in a week?

If it sounds like I am always going up against the system, I am not. I rarely run into any ATC problems. I have great respect for what you do, and the pressures you work under.

By the way, I obliquely mentioned the Serco incident in post 18 of this thread. Here are the details:

Earlier this year I was refused entry into a class Delta because my "no electrics" Cub was not transponder equipped. We got that resolved in a hurry.

On August 1 at this same Serco tower, I was given a ten minute callback. Hey, that happens in crowded airspace, and I am happy to hold and wait for my turn. I no longer burn 5000# of fuel per hour.

During the ten minute hold the controller allowed two inbounds for touch and goes, and one student in the pattern. All three callups sounded like initial callups to me. Maybe he forgot me?

So at ten minutes I called and asked for a sequence inbound. He said "hold for another ten minutes." I gently challenged that by mentioning his allowing touch and goes for others. His answer was he was not allowing no transponder aircraft.

I climbed above his Class D, let him know what I was doing, and got a landing clearance - I guess he realized I was holding until "minimum fuel" status. I had maintenance business at his airport.

You get the picture. We are working on it, and I expect an answer next week. Tapes are preserved.

Serco has gotten better over the years, but they still have a different mindset. We are there for them, not the other way around. Friendly pressure has changed some of that.

 

[Mike Kilo]

By the way, I obliquely mentioned the Serco incident in post 18 of this thread. Here are the details:

Earlier this year I was refused entry into a class Delta because my "no electrics" Cub was not transponder equipped. We got that resolved in a hurry.

On August 1 at this same Serco tower, I was given a ten minute callback. Hey, that happens in crowded airspace, and I am happy to hold and wait for my turn. I no longer burn 5000# of fuel per hour.

During the ten minute hold the controller allowed two inbounds for touch and goes, and one student in the pattern. All three callups sounded like initial callups to me. Maybe he forgot me?

So at ten minutes I called and asked for a sequence inbound. He said "hold for another ten minutes." I gently challenged that by mentioning his allowing touch and goes for others. His answer was he was not allowing no transponder aircraft.

I climbed above his Class D, let him know what I was doing, and got a landing clearance - I guess he realized I was holding until "minimum fuel" status. I had maintenance business at his airport.

You get the picture. We are working on it, and I expect an answer next week. Tapes are preserved.

Serco has gotten better over the years, but they still have a different mindset. We are there for them, not the other way around. Friendly pressure has changed some of that.

Sounds like you got shafted to me. I’ve never heard of denying itinerant aircraft for local touch and goes.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

He was denied because he doesn't have a transponder, had nothing to do with the requests.

 

[Bob44zw]

No statement in the .65 about priority for touch and goes. My tower shuts them down when inbounds get too heavy. But likewise, there is no equipment priority in the 2-1-4 demand for "first come, first serve."

I will let you know how this one turns out Monday, when the tower chief returns.

 

[Mike Kilo]

He was denied because he doesn't have a transponder, had nothing to do with the requests.

Due to not having ADS-B? Transponder is not required in class d, only radio right? Not sure where he was flying and I could be off lol.

“ADS-B Out will not be required to fly into Class D airspace or uncontrolled airfields, as long as they are not located within a 30nm Mode C ring and you stay out of Class B and Class C airspace.”

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Due to not having ADS-B? Transponder is not required in class d, only radio right? Not sure where he was flying and I could be off lol.

“ADS-B Out will not be required to fly into Class D airspace or uncontrolled airfields, as long as they are not located within a 30nm Mode C ring and you stay out of Class B and Class C airspace.”

No transponder. Aka primary only. I'd imagine he's grandfathered into the ADS-B rules as well.

 

[Bob44zw]

Yes, grandfathered. Yes, under class B, so otherwise required.

But, resolved. They had a big meeting - even though I said "landing" at the end of my initial callup, they assumed touch and goes. Big student training airport, and mostly ESL students.

The way we will handle it in the future is - initial callup will be "full stop landing for services." If that doesn't work, climb to 3900 feet and report holding above the runway. This is all non- standard, but the occasional no transponder aircraft is a novelty to new controllers.

I am not big on very long initial callups, or for that matter, readbacks. For me it is "runway number and N- number" and very little else. The word "landing" has always been sufficient to distinguish between "touch and goes" or the more modern "pattern work." But I can still learn new tricks. Arf!

So, happy enough to not bother Serco in Herndon.

End of that story.