Staffing Telcon

[breakaway2000]

From the staffing Telcon today...
Important Notice - August 23, 2017,

With the latest changes to the PPT involving training duration and training success rates, the projected national average of CPC to target has risen to 93.6%. This has resulted in the Category 2 release threshold being above that required for Category 1 releases. This morning we met with the Agency to address this situation. After much discussion, we have collaboratively agreed the following change for Category 2 release eligibility: Current % CPC to Target (Column K) must be above the Current % CPC to Target national average, and the Projected % to Target (Column X) must be above 85%.

Additionally, there will no longer be a Category 1 (12 month) release window for those facilities which would fall from Category 1 to below the national average, with the release of one individual. Releases will either be Category 1 or Category 2.

- If you were a Cat 1 (1 year), start the process to get you release date updated.

- They have not discussed any type of prohibiting factor of newly certified CPC's putting in ERRs.

Please post other information you found relevant.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Heard there was a lot of no one promised you that you'd be able to move, suck it up talk

 

[breakaway2000]

Heard there was a lot of no one promised you that you'd be able to move, suck it up talk

There was a lot of that as well as litter the top 10 if you want to move.

 

[CaptainObvious]

There was a lot of that as well as litter the top 10 if you want to move.

Yeah heard that one as well. Seems like a complete load from the organization that's supposed to be there for the employees

 

[Ohhhhgee]

did they put out any notes from the telcon besides the changes that were posted on the natca site?

 

[corn4ahead]

They are almost encouraging CPC to ERR to high level, high priority facilities. So the priority list is doing exactly what they want it to. It's unfortunate really.

 

[RogerDat]

I am really curious to see how this works out in 1-2 years when people who are going from very low level facilities to very high level facilities begin washing out. Yes, overall the numbers appear to be improving today but when a mass exodus of failures occurs in the future, the next step is what? I only wish people luck who are going to these facilities, but statistically, a lot will not make it (again, some will and I hope 100 percent of you make it through). I'm afraid the long term failures of the current process are going to "washout" for a lack of a better term, todays so-called success in beefing up the higher levels and we will be back at square one.

Second, call me soft, but I disagree with sending new hires to N90, where we all know half will fail, and then just sending them on their merry way when they do. These people are quitting jobs to come to the FAA to be immediately set up for failure. The biggest flaw of this all is the amount of money that will be spent on their hiring process, their training, their per diems in OKC etc to ultimately wash. If you want to give them N90 off the bat, so be it. But to wash them out completely after being off the street and sent to a place where a large percentage of people with experience will fail is crazy. Remember, these people were deemed qualified because they were hired. The FAA should use them...especially considering we are understaffed and the hiring process takes two years. To throw these people out the door I crazy. I guess this is really more a FAA issue than NATCA but whatever.....

 

[Jordan]

I am really curious to see how this works out in 1-2 years when people who are going from very low level facilities to very high level facilities begin washing out. Yes, overall the numbers appear to be improving today but when a mass exodus of failures occurs in the future, the next step is what? I only wish people luck who are going to these facilities, but statistically, a lot will not make it (again, some will and I hope 100 percent of you make it through). I'm afraid the long term failures of the current process are going to "washout" for a lack of a better term, todays so-called success in beefing up the higher levels and we will be back at square one.

Second, call me soft, but I disagree with sending new hires to N90, where we all know half will fail, and then just sending them on their merry way when they do. These people are quitting jobs to come to the FAA to be immediately set up for failure. The biggest flaw of this all is the amount of money that will be spent on their hiring process, their training, their per diems in OKC etc to ultimately wash. If you want to give them N90 off the bat, so be it. But to wash them out completely after being off the street and sent to a place where a large percentage of people with experience will fail is crazy. Remember, these people were deemed qualified because they were hired. The FAA should use them...especially considering we are understaffed and the hiring process takes two years. To throw these people out the door I crazy. I guess this is really more a FAA issue than NATCA but whatever.....

I do think there will be some people biting off more than they can chew but yes I agree some will make it. All in all I'm supportive of it simply because it gives us a choice where we want to go (to an extent). I also think that because of the severity of the staffing levels at some places, you will see a changing of the guard in certification rates, too. At some point those places' mgt have to balance staffing vs the integrity of the operation, and by the agency allowing a sort of "free for all" policy, I do feel the agency is going to do everything they can to make those who made the bigger facility level jumps successful.

 

[CaptainObvious]

This is what is going to happen when they wash out:

-Staffing will take a hit, so the FAA will pump new hires to the desirable facilities.

-NATCA won't protect their members at lower levels and will leave NCEPT in place, locking down a bunch of current, certified employees because "no one forced you to take the job, and no one promised you any ability to move"

-People trapped in a 4-7 in locations they don't want will start to quit, hardship or go DOD

-So many people will hardship and abuse the system, that they will lock down hardships to a ridiculous standard

Oh wait, I just described the status quo. So that. Everything will remain the same

 

[corn4ahead]

Did anyone else appreciate what the guy from SMO had to say. I thought it was quite ballsy and awesome. Basically 100% accurate.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Did anyone else appreciate what the guy from SMO had to say. I thought it was quite ballsy and awesome. Basically 100% accurate.

You remember what he said?

its funny, our VP was ripping him about how stupid he was and needed to shut up

 

[corn4ahead]

You remember what he said?

its funny, our VP was ripping him about how stupid he was and needed to shut up

He said that Natca is a representation of the members and that he thought it would be a great idea to have a survey sent out to get true and honest feedback of the process and how it's going. Trish basically said that he needs to attend the convention to make his opinion heard.

He was also saying how the old process sucked but at least there was a light at the end of the tunnel but with this, there is none. I personally thought he was pretty knowledgeable with how the old process was vs the current process and NATCA basically told him that he had no idea what he was talking about.

Unfortunately what he said is exactly how things are playing out right now but NATCA refuses to see it that way. Again, the blame was just shifted back to the FAA not hiring enough.

 

[Move78]

Getting the proj requirement for down to 85% is a huge win. Things are getting better. I'm upset I missed the telcon. Had no idea.
Still need to restrict new hire checkouts from immediately bidding out. And allow recieving facilities more control over who they get.

 

[corn4ahead]

Getting the proj requirement for down to 85% is a huge win. Things are getting better. I'm upset I missed the telcon. Had no idea.
Still need to restrict new hire checkouts from immediately bidding out. And allow recieving facilities more control over who they get.

Unfortunately, this question was directly asked about restricting newly certified CPCs from bidding out. They stated that they cannot prevent it and that the agency wants people willing to go to high level facilities. If that happens to be someone who is newly certified, then so be it.

 

[Move78]

Unfortunately, this question was directly asked about restricting newly certified CPCs from bidding out. They stated that they cannot prevent it and that the agency wants people willing to go to high level facilities. If that happens to be someone who is newly certified, then so be it.

That response implies there's not enough people willing to go to high level facilities. No shot that's true. Although now that they've actually opened the release criteria there's no longer a guarantee that the kid newly certified will get selected. Because everyone's lists on the receiving end should be a million times more competitive now.

 

[Move78]

Was there any mention of a cap for facility level movement? Maybe after there's evidence of how the new numbers effect everything they'll cap movement at 3 levels to force people to go to 9s and 10s. There's been a lot of growing pains with NCEPT but no one is getting stuck more than the guys in 9s and 10s

 

[Mike Kilo]

Was there any mention of a cap for facility level movement? Maybe after there's evidence of how the new numbers effect everything they'll cap movement at 3 levels to force people to go to 9s and 10s. There's been a lot of growing pains with NCEPT but no one is getting stuck more than the guys in 9s and 10s

I think to fix this they should consider employees at level 8 and above facilities for movements to 10-12 facilities before they look at 7 and below employees. They don't necessarily have to put a cap on the ERRs. If a high level facility doesn't have any 8 and above employees able to be selected (staffing) etc, they can pull from the lower level applicants.

 

[Homsar]

I think to fix this they should consider employees at level 8 and above facilities for movements to 10-12 facilities before they look at 7 and below employees. They don't necessarily have to put a cap on the ERRs. If a high level facility doesn't have any 8 and above employees able to be selected (staffing) etc, they can pull from the lower level applicants.

I like that idea a lot better than the snooty ideas to not allow lower level controllers to bid high level facilities at all.

 

[breakaway2000]

That response implies there's not enough people willing to go to high level facilities. No shot that's true. Although now that they've actually opened the release criteria there's no longer a guarantee that the kid newly certified will get selected. Because everyone's lists on the receiving end should be a million times more competitive now.

I agree with this. Realistically, there's what, 3 facilities (LAX, A80, ZNY) that are borderline guaranteed selections (even though LAX didn't take everyone last panel). It has been absolutely brutal up to this point, but hopefully with the majority of facilities having a large list, no one in their right mind would select a newly certified CPC over better candidates.

Was there any mention of a cap for facility level movement? Maybe after there's evidence of how the new numbers effect everything they'll cap movement at 3 levels to force people to go to 9s and 10s. There's been a lot of growing pains with NCEPT but no one is getting stuck more than the guys in 9s and 10s

Basically the exact opposite. They told people from Waterloo to basically bid A80 if they really want to get out.

I think to fix this they should consider employees at level 8 and above facilities for movements to 10-12 facilities before they look at 7 and below employees. They don't necessarily have to put a cap on the ERRs. If a high level facility doesn't have any 8 and above employees able to be selected (staffing) etc, they can pull from the lower level applicants.

Exactly, I came in late so I didn't know what had been asked previously, but I was waiting for this counter. They said "We can't prohibit someone from putting in an ERR". While that is 100% true, we can create a tiered selection system to process the ERR's.

 

[Mike Kilo]

I emailed the natca reps on NCEPT about this tiered system and haven't heard a peep back.