April (Q2) 2019

Out of the academy placement would do away with most the issues but people place so much importance on NCEPT. Also of course the more senior people would get pissy that it's changing. Do you think it still needs to be so dark in centers and TRACONs, they don't use CRT anymore, someone just suggested the lights on an the seniority whined. Same situation just different details.

#BarrellRoll4Rich
 
Foogy A senior guy at PCT has been trying to get the lights on for years. 90% of the facility has fought it through multiple light testing phases, the high and low seniority. It does still need to be dark. Glare is an issue, there’s 4 screens in front of me all at different angles. Keep the lights off, it works for more reasons than just the old school scopes needing it.
 
Another issue with level caps is that if you look at the PPT spreadsheet, there is very little correlation with training success rates and facility level. When you back out N90 and ZNY, the success rates at a level 6 for example are almost the same as a level 11 or 12. It’s more dependent on training culture and the OJTIs then the trainee often times.

I know a few people who are going to literally throw half their career away simply because they want to go from a 5 to a 8 before a 11 or 12 just to “know they can do an 8” before going higher.

You know what 8 (and 10,11,12) I think these people and I “can do”? The ones with consistent 90%+ success rate. You know what 12’s (and 6, 7, 8’s) I think I can not do or would spend 3+ years training at? The ones with 50-60% success rates. And there is almost the same ratio of each of these rates at the 10 and higher as there is at the 7 and below.
 
Another issue with level caps is that if you look at the PPT spreadsheet, there is very little correlation with training success rates and facility level. When you back out N90 and ZNY, the success rates at a level 6 for example are almost the same as a level 11 or 12. It’s more dependent on training culture and the OJTIs then the trainee often times.

I know a few people who are going to literally throw half their career away simply because they want to go from a 5 to a 8 before a 11 or 12 just to “know they can do an 8” before going higher.

You know what 8 (and 10,11,12) I think these people and I “can do”? The ones with consistent 90%+ success rate. You know what 12’s (and 6, 7, 8’s) I think I can not do or would spend 3+ years training at? The ones with 50-60% success rates. And there is almost the same ratio of each of these rates at the 10 and higher as there is at the 7 and below.
Completely incorrect... our training success rate for level 8s and lower is roughly 20% while level 9s and higher is roughly 65%. There needs to be a facility cap because the data shows that the current ability of a low level transfers isn’t there consistently to transfer into a high level facility and achieve certification the same as a higher level trained individual. Lower level facilities should have higher success rates because their traffic volume and complexity are significantly lower than a level 12 tracon.
 
Completely incorrect... our training success rate for level 8s and lower is roughly 20% while level 9s and higher is roughly 65%. There needs to be a facility cap because the data shows that the current ability of a low level transfers isn’t there consistently to transfer into a high level facility and achieve certification the same as a higher level trained individual. Lower level facilities should have higher success rates because their traffic volume and complexity are significantly lower than a level 12 tracon.

I could get behind a cap for instance if a tower only CPC is trying to get to A80. But if I'm trying to get to ATL why should I have to go to mid level up down where the tower is probably just as busy as a level 6 tower only. Or maybe take facility traffic type and complexity into account. There are level 6s and 7s that get more commercial and GA aviation, than some 8 or 9s that do just a ton of touch and gos all day with the occasional air carrier coming in.

Lower level facilities should have a higher success rate, but their training programs are completely trash, trainees getting like 12-20 hours a month.
 
[USER=1864 said:
Move78[/USER] In certain circumstances my father wouldn't beat me with a pair of jumper cables. In general, facility pay levels are a good indicator of difficulty available within a facility since they're based off a complexity index.
This is untrue
 
when 25% plus in some NCEPT panels of CPC transfers have already been unsuccessful with more to come, obviously something needs to change. and just because one person doesn't want to leave home and his mommy doesn't mean there isn't another willing to do just that. someone controlling the NCEPT potentially has to make that choice and think what is best for most. top level facilities are receiving people they probably shouldn't in some cases because many of the lower level facilities are the only places that can release people because they get people from the academy. Also we already have a cap, its at the academy, why are we ok with screwing people who aren't in the union yet but not ok with it once you are certified, academy grads have to prove something? whats the difference? the lower level facility person has to prove it at the next facility anyway. I believe RobertB is right, the union sees an inconsistent success with trainees so the cap must be, at the minimum considered.

I completely agree this needs to be more transparent, and I'm not saying I necessarily agree with a cap, but more things absolutely need to be taken into consideration, personal ability for one but that's extremely difficult because culture and OJTIs can be the downfall of that person also, or traffic complexity at the losing facility. but the overall staffing health of all facilities must be considered because what we had prior put us in this awful mess in the first place. and yes a bitter manager can be your downfall, but the union is just as responsible for screwing as many people over because of politics. people talk, if you are a shit stain according to one persons opinion, the facrep doesn't have to hold back their thoughts when asked for a recommendation and they haven't in many instances Ive seen.

either way, policy intended to help the overall, does not and will never solve every single problem and help every single person. when people at your facility play the game and fake a hardship or blast out 40 ERRs the union sees that and says well if some are willing to do it then why change? we as a workforce are our own worst enemy and want some many different things and the system will never be perfect because of just that.

some of the lower level facilities training programs are trash yes and some of that has to do with people not wanting to train day after day because of low traffic and they don't want to spend time in the classroom teaching the trainee because they aren't receiving 10%. plug in talk to someone, anyone and its better for the trainee, sit in the classroom and talk about traffic, use falcon, table tops whatever go through some common scenarios over and over and over during low traffic hours, and if you think that's wasting hours, then raise the target hours at your facility, talk to the union and negotiate an update of your training order with management so plugging in daily doesn't affect that.
 
36% of Level 9 and above tower only's have a success rate of 80% or less (8/22)
25% of Level 8 and below tower only's have a success rate of 80% or less (28/110)

Doesn't seem meaningfully different enough to mandate a level cap imo
 
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What part of this do you think is untrue as a general statement?
It's just an inaccurate generalization. It's much more nuisanced than that. Difficulty varies drastically between facilities within the same level and within different areas within facilities themselves.
I'm sure every position at A80 is probably difficult. But that has less to do with the number 12 and more to do with A80.
There are sectors that exist within high level centers that we'd have to create a level 3 for. And that controller is sitting 20 feet away from the next area that has outrageous sectors that half the CPCs in house would wash on. And some sectors that generate a huge traffic bump but you could teach a monkey to say high and bye 100 times in a row.
Work James River at PCT and say with a straight face it's hard because of the number 12.
There are are many mid to low level facilities that are very seasonal too. You get paid at a 7 cuz you do 0 for 6 months but that's irrelevant to judge how hard the other 6 may be.
 
Move78 good indicator of difficulty available within a facility

Move78 I understand that hence how I worded it. Im also from a low level seasonal tower that has odd spikes in traffic and complexity. While the person who works my sector at NCT obviously shouldn't be getting level 12 pay, there is an chance if I decided to ERR to NCT I could wind up working airspace for SFO vs a slower area.

It doesnt negate the fact of severely increased difficulty being possible, hence increased risk, and increased wash rates.
 
And everyone knows the training culture is miserable, but the practicality of trying to change that within any reasonable amount of time is moot.
 
36% of Level 9 and above tower only's have a success rate of 80% or less (8/22)
25% of Level 8 and below tower only's have a success rate of 80% or less (28/110)

Doesn't seem meaningfully different enough to mandate a level cap imo


those are rates that come from 2015 and before. When determining the success or failure of the NCEPT, what is statistically important is success rates 1) after the academy only placed level 7/8 and below 2) success rate of CPC Transfers after the NCEPT. 3) success rates of CPCs per level jump IE, 5 to a 12 so on and so forth. Overall success rates don't tell the whole story.
 
those are rates that come from 2015 and before. When determining the success or failure of the NCEPT, what is statistically important is success rates 1) after the academy only placed level 7/8 and below 2) success rate of CPC Transfers after the NCEPT. 3) success rates of CPCs per level jump IE, 5 to a 12 so on and so forth. Overall success rates don't tell the whole story.
Training Data that incorporates 2016 won't be used until 90% of those that started training in 2016 have reached CPC. Currently they still have about 15% that are in training.
 
n some cases because many of the lower level facilities are the only places that can release people because they get people from the academy. Also we already have a cap, its at the academy, why are we ok with screwing people who aren't in the union yet but not ok with it once you are certified, academy grads have to prove something? whats the difference? the lower level facility person has to prove it at the next facility anyway.

this is apple and oranges. OKC is for new hires on probation who can literally be fired without cause. NATCA members at their facilities have the full spectrum of employee rights, and a Union advocating for their working conditions. OKC is a screen intended to judge one's general aptitude and chances of being successful in the field at their first facility. To answer your question... because theyre NOT IN THE UNION. they are owed nothing and have no standing to even imply theyre being "screwed". Granted i think the FAA should reform how it does its hiring and where trainees are sent, but no trainee in the first months of their employment should ever dare claim theyre being screwed because they dont get to call their own shot and whatever they want. they should shhhhh, and train and become good little controllers before making waves and feeling entitled!
 
#BarrellRoll4Rich

:lol::rofl::lol::rofl:

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To answer your question... because theyre NOT IN THE UNION. they are owed nothing and have no standing to even imply theyre being "screwed".

I agree with quite a few points you've made, but this mentality is a disease that creates young controllers who certify and harbor ill will towards the older controllers, creates a shit facility morale, and then the young controllers get older and reflect the same sentiment back on the new controllers with their "You havent earned shit yet" bullshit.
 
I agree with quite a few points you've made, but this mentality is a disease that creates young controllers who certify and harbor ill will towards the older controllers, creates a shit facility morale, and then the young controllers get older and reflect the same sentiment back on the new controllers with their "You havent earned shit yet" bullshit.

It's not an entirely unreasonable point, though. The union exists to look after the interests of its members, and any union only has so much political capital to expend. If the union uses its time, money, and resources to go to bat for Academy students, it stands to reason that they giving up an opportunity to get something for their dues-paying members.

I personally agree with you, and I think NATCA trying to negotiate better placement for academy grads would be a great way to solve a lot of these problems before they occur. But I can also see a LOT of controllers getting up in arms if NATCA used its political capital to negotiate better conditions for academy students instead of active members.
 
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