July 2020

BrocolliRob said:
It’s easy dude. Just splat, MF, forward slant, splat, space, MF, C, slew and click. But don’t fuck any of it up or it won’t do anything or tell you what you messed up.
Click to expand...
I could handle how archaic it is if it wasn’t for the ABC keyboard. I’d like to kick all the old timers who voted for that straight in the nuts. Literally the worst piece of technology I’ve ever worked with.
 
BrocolliRob said:
It’s easy dude. Just splat, MF, forward slant, splat, space, MF, C, slew and click. But don’t fuck any of it up or it won’t do anything or tell you what you messed up.
Click to expand...
Hahahaha that actually made me LOL. What’s with the code shit!?! STARS is archaic with their secret computer coding and nonsense.
 
jdatc said:
Ha. I got to ZDV, and they were like, here's your maps. they are open book. we have like 2 lab problems for you since you didn't do ERAM. ok, go train whenever you are done with that stuff. Supervisor: Who are you? Training team, sure I guess we will find you one. Just go train. It didn't matter, a transfer center CPC should be a home run.

Later when I was training people, I didn't like the fact that they ran the radar labs for the new people with live notams. It was stupid if you went through labs in the winter with snow removal as you would have it worse then if you went through in the summer. I told the training department it was stupid, and wasn't fair to trainees. They wouldn't listen to me, so I kicked it directly to someone I knew high up in OKC from rewriting some local training orders at my old Z. I didn't win my argument, but management was shocked when they realized things had got out of the building in regards to training and I certainly didn't follow the chain of command. I never will. Maybe that's why no one misses me.... But I did give the break room a new toaster oven before I left.

Then I went to a large tracon. Short classes, relevant sims, and a cbi on equipment and done in a year. But don't ask me how to do anything on stars. Oh yeah, might want to teach me what class B airspace is again.... hahaha. Training will always be what it will be, but after your first facility it's not hard to figure it out. I'd be trying to head to my 4th if my ERR paperwork didn't expire and I wasn't scared of ERR'ing during the covid.
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I’m sure I reported to ZDV right after shit hit the fan. My buddy transferred there a year and half before me and got exactly what you said. I got there and was handed a new hire training plan, which I got fixed, and was stuck in the training department for 5 months. We were both in the same area at ZJX. Took me a little over 2 months to cert on the floor.

Funny you mention live Notams. On my final “radar assessment” (problem 15) the TM told me live Notams at the start and sat behind me for the whole problem. Well RWL was closed and these stupid problems have like 15 arrivals built in like jets actually land there. I started some holding stacks and sent the rest to random ass airports. She kept telling me to disregard that Notam but I was like nope, Notams are Notams. She was pissed ?
 
Here is your ERR fix. Your job is now at XXX facility as of August 21, 2021.

Ta-da! Barring hardship circumstances (I know they can be scams too) your job is now at the new facility. Report or resign.
 
HenryTheAce said:
Lol true, so I guess it wasn’t the true basement. Definitely got good on the corn hole boards though out on the ramp with all the extra time. Terminal was nice as well to kill some time on those long 8.5hr days
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I would literally just walk up and down the terminal until someone told me I was supposed to be doing something productive.
 
Robertb said:
Yeah, but you can go from a D1 (say $72K) or D2 (say $94K) down to a low level, save pay and then get half on the go, to a 12 (say base of $140K). You wash out of ZTL at a D2 and get sent to say CHS where you certify making the same amount of money. Then, you get picked up at A80 and you make $120K while training. You’re making more than CPCs at Salt Lake TRACON (a level 10)! How’s that a good system for a training failure to be able to move back up so quickly when others are STUCK at their facilities due to staffing?
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It doesn't really work like that. If you wash as a D1 or D2 at a level 12 then go to let's say a level 6, you go to the top of the level 6 D1 or D2 pay ban. If you were a CPC at a low level and transfer to a level 12 then wash out, you lose the half on the go you received when you go back to the level 5 or 6 level. They reset your pay as if you never went to that level 12. You make the money while you are in the building at that level 12, but once you wash and check into your new low level facility or use return rights to go back where you came from the money is gone
 
ATCNOMAD said:
It doesn't really work like that. If you wash as a D1 or D2 at a level 12 then go to let's say a level 6, you go to the top of the level 6 D1 or D2 pay ban. If you were a CPC at a low level and transfer to a level 12 then wash out, you lose the half on the go you received when you go back to the level 5 or 6 level. They reset your pay as if you never went to that level 12. You make the money while you are in the building at that level 12, but once you wash and check into your new low level facility or use return rights to go back where you came from the money is gone
Click to expand...
I understand how it works that is why I said “in training.” The point is that an employee can get hired into a center (ZTL), in example above, not certify, get sent to CHS, certify, and then bid out immediately to level 12 (A80), and be making the same or more than a CPC at S56. Yet that person has a only ever certified, for a minute, at a level 8. I looked up historic January pay raises, but I’m not going to look up exact localities, and I’m rounding, so the example below is close, but not exact.
2013 (AG)- $41K ($50K with locality) and D1 in December 2013
2014 (D1)- $59K + 1.6% in June= $60K + 1% January increase= $60.5K ($74K with locality) and D2 in Dec. 2014
2015 (D2)- $77K + 1% in Jan. +1.6% in June= $79K ($96.5K with locality)
2016 (D2)- $79K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $81K ($99K) and go to TRB in late 2016, but get put back in training
2017 (D2)- $81K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $83K ($101.3K with locality), training ended in 2017 and transfer to CHS in Feb. 2018
2018 (D2 fail and transfer)- $83K + 1.4% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $85.5K ($99K with locality)
2019 (still training)- $85.5K + 1.4% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $88K ($102K with locality) and certify in Fall 2019 and get release to A80 in December 2019
2020 (CPC-IT finally)- $88K + half on go ($13K)= $101K base + 2.6% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $105K ($128.5K)

So currently the exampled employee would be making $128,500 and was certified for less than six months in a seven year career!
Let’s assume they spend three years training here (longest current person is at FOUR years STILL in training here) and the contract gets renewed...
2021 (CPC-IT)- $105K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6%= $107.7K ($131.5K with locality)
2022 (CPC-IT)- $107.7K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $110.5K ($135K with locality) go to TRB in late 2022
2023 (CPC-IT)- $110.5K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $113.3K ($138.4K with locality) and training ends with reassignment to BNA in February 2024 because you “showed some promise” or you hardshipped
2024 (CPC-IT)- pay is set back to $100.1K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $102.7K ($119.1K with locality)

So an ELEVEN YEAR career, where we’ve washed twice and now we’re making $119,100K and we’ve been a CPC for less than six months... and they’ll get a 6% pay when they certify at BNA (level 9) because their pay was set at CHS (level 8!)
Compare that career, thus far, of pay raises to a 2020 CPC, at S56.
 
Last edited:
Robertb said:
I understand how it works that is why I said “in training.” The point is that an employee can get hired into a center (ZTL), in example above, not certify, get sent to CHS, certify, and then bid out immediately to level 12 (A80), and be making the same or more than a CPC at S56. Yet that person has a only ever certified, for a minute, at a level 8. I looked up historic January pay raises, but I’m not going to look up exact localities, and I’m rounding, so the example below is close, but not exact.
2013 (AG)- $41K ($50K with locality) and D1 in December 2013
2014 (D1)- $59K + 1.6% in June= $60K + 1% January increase= $60.5K ($74K with locality) and D2 in Dec. 2014
2015 (D2)- $77K + 1% in Jan. +1.6% in June= $79K ($96.5K with locality)
2016 (D2)- $79K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $81K ($99K) and go to TRB in late 2016, but get put back in training
2017 (D2)- $81K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $83K ($101.3K with locality), training ended in 2017 and transfer to CHS in Feb. 2018
2018 (D2 fail and transfer)- $83K + 1.4% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $85.5K ($99K with locality)
2019 (still training)- $85.5K + 1.4% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $88K ($102K with locality) and certify in Fall 2019 and get release to A80 in December 2019
2020 (CPC-IT finally)- $88K + half on go ($13K)= $101K base + 2.6% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $105K ($128.5K)

So currently the exampled employee would be making $128,500 and was certified for less than six months in a seven year career!
Let’s assume they spend three years training here (longest current person is at FOUR years STILL in training here) and the contract gets renewed...
2021 (CPC-IT)- $105K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6%= $107.7K ($131.5K with locality)
2022 (CPC-IT)- $107.7K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $110.5K ($135K with locality) go to TRB in late 2022
2023 (CPC-IT)- $110.5K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $113.3K ($138.4K with locality) and training ends with reassignment to BNA in February 2024 because you “showed some promise” or you hardshipped
2024 (CPC-IT)- pay is set back to $100.1K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $102.7K ($119.1K with locality)

So an ELEVEN YEAR career, where we’ve washed twice and now we’re making $119,100K and we’ve been a CPC for less than six months... and they’ll get a 6% pay when they certify at BNA (level 9) because their pay was set at CHS (level 8!)
Compare that career, thus far, of pay raises to a 2020 CPC, at S56.
Click to expand...

Thanks for writing my 11 year career plan, wait till the wife hears how much I’ll make!

Hopefully I get a 12 center right off the bat....
 
Robertb said:
I understand how it works that is why I said “in training.” The point is that an employee can get hired into a center (ZTL), in example above, not certify, get sent to CHS, certify, and then bid out immediately to level 12 (A80), and be making the same or more than a CPC at S56. Yet that person has a only ever certified, for a minute, at a level 8. I looked up historic January pay raises, but I’m not going to look up exact localities, and I’m rounding, so the example below is close, but not exact.
2013 (AG)- $41K ($50K with locality) and D1 in December 2013
2014 (D1)- $59K + 1.6% in June= $60K + 1% January increase= $60.5K ($74K with locality) and D2 in Dec. 2014
2015 (D2)- $77K + 1% in Jan. +1.6% in June= $79K ($96.5K with locality)
2016 (D2)- $79K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $81K ($99K) and go to TRB in late 2016, but get put back in training
2017 (D2)- $81K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $83K ($101.3K with locality), training ended in 2017 and transfer to CHS in Feb. 2018
2018 (D2 fail and transfer)- $83K + 1.4% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $85.5K ($99K with locality)
2019 (still training)- $85.5K + 1.4% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $88K ($102K with locality) and certify in Fall 2019 and get release to A80 in December 2019
2020 (CPC-IT finally)- $88K + half on go ($13K)= $101K base + 2.6% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $105K ($128.5K)

So currently the exampled employee would be making $128,500 and was certified for less than six months in a seven year career!
Let’s assume they spend three years training here (longest current person is at FOUR years STILL in training here) and the contract gets renewed...
2021 (CPC-IT)- $105K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6%= $107.7K ($131.5K with locality)
2022 (CPC-IT)- $107.7K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $110.5K ($135K with locality) go to TRB in late 2022
2023 (CPC-IT)- $110.5K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $113.3K ($138.4K with locality) and training ends with reassignment to BNA in February 2024 because you “showed some promise” or you hardshipped
2024 (CPC-IT)- pay is set back to $100.1K + 1% in Jan. + 1.6% in June= $102.7K ($119.1K with locality)

So an ELEVEN YEAR career, where we’ve washed twice and now we’re making $119,100K and we’ve been a CPC for less than six months... and they’ll get a 6% pay when they certify at BNA (level 9) because their pay was set at CHS (level 8!)
Compare that career, thus far, of pay raises to a 2020 CPC, at S56.
Click to expand...
We get it, Atlanta is busy.
 
COWTOWN said:
We get it, Atlanta is busy.
Click to expand...
Okay, Karen... The point is a wash out from a center is better off financially than someone who gets hired into a low level facility and works their way up. I guess you missed the entire decision, but that would require you to get your head out of your own ass!
 
Robertb said:
Okay, Karen... The point is a wash out from a center is better off financially than someone who gets hired into a low level facility and works their way up. I guess you missed the entire decision, but that would require you to get your head out of your own ass!
Click to expand...
I agree. I’m not sure if it’s still this way but lots of level 12 center washouts go to level 10 centers. Kind of shitty if they’re getting placed before mid level CPC’s trying to move up.
 
Dousand24 said:
Changes for NCEPT:
1) No more than 4 level jump
2) How ever long it took you to certify, you have to give 50% of that time before you can transfer (took 2 years to certify, have to work a year before leaving)
3) Penalize controllers who decline offers (ie. can’t submit paperwork for a year)
4) Limit number of ERRs you can have out
5) Staff level 4-6 to 120% staffing
Click to expand...

I think what a lot of people don’t see when complaining about people being in these 4-6 level towers for 2 days is the training time. Prior experience, NEST and frankly a lot of new hires that aren’t straight stupid get certified in 2-6 months. Certified in 3 months and getting picked up before they can even be a CIC or train someone. Just saying #2 could apply and people will still cry about it.

I know the level up thing is an issue to and sometimes I’m on that side and other times I see people wanting to go back home and the only thing there is a center or busy tower. Not everyone’s home has a 5-8 facility. They will be more motivated to get certified where they want to live to. I don’t know..maybe not. Easier for me to say because I don’t cry about not seeing mommy lol
 

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