Why is the low level tower only success rate at A80 so dismal. Level 12 TRACONs like NCT, SCT, Denver, Houston, Dallas and even New York have had success with low level tower only and even off the street hires getting certified. Some with low success rates (like N90) but still have had people do it. I could be missing a few others, but those are the ones I know of. I understand not all level 12s are created equal. But why is Atlanta so bad at getting them certified? It almost makes me think it is more than just the workload causing this.
July 2020
- Thread starter Stinger
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Alex at SCT ranks tower only low. So most low level tower you see have prior radar, or are at a small updown but still has some radar background. It's rare for SCT to take tower only person no radar.
I know they don't get picked up at SCT a lot. Especially now days since they changed the rules and new hires can no longer get hired in at high level terminal facilities like they used to. But compared to what has been described at A80,
SCT has had A LOT more success with tower only controls. That's the point I'm making.
So, this is just my point of view from what I’ve seen over the past few years... I know of a couple people who have put in for A80 to get out of their current lower level facilities with no intent of actually certifying there. They go there to get out, put in a little time and then withdraw because they really don’t wana work there the rest of the careers, it was just a way out of their really shitty first facility. “What, people actually do that?” Yes. And it’s not just A80. It is worth it to play this game (for some people), because in their minds a NEST list has more options then the one option of being stuck at their current non-desirable facility. Not to mention, if they don’t like their NEST list, they can still opt to return to that facility that they left because there’s nothing saying that once you see your list NEST you can’t return to your facility and that it’s “too late.” Again, maybe it’s not a lot of people doing this, but this agenda does effect A80’s success rate. Moral of the story, not everyone wants to put in the effort or be there at all. I’m sure if everyone who ends up there wants to be successful the numbers would be significantly better. Just my .02
Oh, and this is why it’s bugged me so much that people want to put a cap on level jumps. Because this unsuccessful data, isn’t a true testament to what it could be if people weren’t trying to work the system. Putting a cap on level jump ruins it for the rest of the people that actually do want to put in the time and effort to be successful. The data is “flawed” if you will. And I don’t think we should force people to have to go to 4 facilities to get to their end goal when they may never even be able to get out of their first low level, non-desirable one. No one should HAVE to be stuck at one place for their entire career or to HAVE to be in training their entire career IMO.
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SCT has about a 50% success rate for tower only trainees withno radar. Every area has a couple of people who made it with no prior atc experience either back in the day. I’m not sure what is so difficult about the C90/A80’s compared to SCT but I’d love to visit them one day and see what the big deal is about.
Some consolidated tracons have low level tracons inside of them (Area X). Some don’t.
50% is pretty good when you think about the fact that it's people with zero radar experience making it at a high level approach control. I really wonder what the big deal is at C90/A80 type facilities too, or if the "big deal" even exist at all.
Dontbotherme
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We had people playing the NEST Lotto, for years and it is a hard facility to work at due to traffic volume and complexity. It isn’t a place where someone with little to no experience can come in and do well. C90 is the exact same way. I never said off the streets haven’t certified here. I said no tower only controller (other than ATL) has ever certified. That’s a big difference. The OTS and VRAs brought in the mid 2000 to late 2000s took years to certify. You can read facility rep reports, from A80, on the NATCA website. I90 does half the traffic, D01 is hot garbage, NCT and SCT have volume, but it doesn’t mean they’re difficult. D10’s approach wall is 1/3 less busy and they can land four runways. Working LAX, at SCT, is a 1/3 less busy.
Traditionally, the 9 and higher success rate is 66% and 8s and lower is like 25%. There is a big difference from working at C90 or A80 versus M03, F11, D01, S56, et cetera.
SCT, PCT, and NCT have a lot more sectors/areas to potentially hide them too. Hell, even N90 has Islip, where my buddy Kilo Papa hangs!
You’re welcome to put in a transfer here or C90 and try for yourself...
jdatc
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Wow. Shots fired.
So when it comes to achieving certification, C90 and A80 are in a class of their own above the rest in the world of approach control. Interesting. I hold an OTS at an approach control a VFR tower only at an approach control and a VRA with no military radar experience at an approach control all one in the same when it comes to odds of making it. So at least 2 of the 3 have checked out at A80. It makes a little more sense hearing that. Thanks for the info
Dontbotherme
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No, I’m just saying you’re trying to infer that something else is going on here other than people can meet the standard especially tower only qualified transfers. What are you rambling on about with your OTS and VRA sentence? I’m not following what you’re saying at all.
I agree with everything you said except the 4 level cap part. I think a 4 level cap would make the whole system's transfer situation flow smoother. Training time as a whole would shorten and mid level facilities that don't get new hires or many transfers would have better staffing as lower level controllers would have to go to them in order to move up. Maybe you don't "go home" as soon. But you take this job knowing home ain't guaranteed in the 1st place. So getting home could be a 2 transfer process. It would actually be a good thing. More people would transfer down 1-3 levels if it was like that too. The whole system would be a lot more flexible. I would say 4 cap only for terminal. If you wanna go center and can jump what whatever level you want. Since centers are built to train from the ground up. So if you really wanna skip the 4 level cap for whatever reason you can go the Z route. Problem solved.
Mike Kilo
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This, except I like a 3 level cap. When NCEPT started the 8/9s were left in the dust by the 5-7s. If a high facility doesn’t have any mid/high level applicants then run a second round of NCEPT to look at lower candidates that are eligible still.
You said in you comment to me, " I never said off the streets haven’t certified here. I said no tower only controller (other than ATL) has ever certified. That’s a big difference. The OTS and VRAs brought in the mid 2000 to late 2000s took years to certify."
I was saying the OTS and VRAs you speak of that made it in the mid and late 2000s was new information to me. I put them in the same category as VFR tower controllers. Knowing some of them have certified at A80 changes how I originally felt. Those kind of people have certified at A80. It just hasn't happened in a while. That makes more sense.
I’m not completely closed to the idea of a cap... 4 levels would definitely be better than 3, but with the current NCEPT, I’m not a fan. A bunch of things would have to change in order for me to be on-board with that idea. Like not being stuck at low levels forever. Granted, I’m fortunate enough to be at a mid level now, but I was in a low level for a while and the “no light at the end of the tunnel” thing got old really fast. I feel for everyone who’s still in that situation. I have a sibling that went straight to a high level from the get-go and was successful. Some people just get luckier than others as to where they end up from the start.
3 level works too. I just like the 4 level cap simply because the facility levels are 4-12 so its divisible. Someone could technically go 4, 8, 12. Seems smooth.
FightingIrish2012
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How about a two level cap? Make these fuckers #paytheirdues
Dontbotherme
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If I remember the data correctly from when we were trying to get the priority release MOU, VRAs had like a 35-40% success rate and their average certification time was roughly 2.6 years. They also had something 1500+ hours, if they went to their max hours and that’s without a TRB and getting more time. If you’re short staffed, you can’t wait that long and the agency saw that at Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, et cetera. Took years to recover.
True. But having someone that will take 2.6 years is better than nothing. Bad situation completely, but it's the FAA. You gotta take what you can get lol. 2-3 years is the average in the center environment. So you are not alone.
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I’ve had a strong interest in A80 from 2017. The achievement of making it at a hard TRACON has been a goal of mine after RTF and reaching certification. Perhaps I should resubmit my ERR paperwork (after consulting the wife, of course) and see if that is perhaps my destiny.
Robertb, you still a trainer there?
Robertb, you still a trainer there?
