June 2018

breakaway2000 said:
Given the level of hatred you're showing @16gtiguy, I'm going to step in and address a few things...

1) You can't evoke Article 60 with the NCEPT.

2) The NCEPT does favor lower level facilities. While some lower level hard to staff facilities have gotten the shaft, the vast majority of NCEPT selections are from 7 and below facilities.

3) Since the NCEPT inception, his facility has been able to release 1 person, even without knowing what facility you're currently at (I could take a highly educated guess), you had 3 Cat 1 selections in a single panel. You had the ability to go to high level facilities, you are choosing not to because you view them as undesirable (like how @16gtiguy feels about his current facility) and it appears you have a single dream facility you're trying to get to.

4) The ATM at your dream facility has complete input with the NCEPT. He ranks exactly how he wants selections done and the NCEPT follows them. Despite your tours, the ATM did not rank you high enough to be selected. The NCEPT panel members did not pick up level 11/12 controllers over you, the ATM did.
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I'd like to add to this and say in my opinion point 2 should read that it "generally" favors easy to staff lower level "Terminal" facilities. If you look at the top 15 facilities for possible losses a large portion of them are 10-12 centers.
I also think using the selection frequency of 7 and below facilities isn't a great statistic for measure here because those facilities are also the most likely to have ERRs out. There's a bunch of high level facilities that never lose as many bodies in an NCEPT round as they're eligible to.
 
just think how great its going to be when hiring and retiring really slow down! :rolleyes:
anyhow lets try to keep on the topic of this NCEPT panel, since that's what this thread is for. NCEPT debate thread is always there for the other stuff, or just make a whole new post in the scratchpad forum proclaiming the greatness that is ncept.
 
breakaway2000 said:
Given the level of hatred you're showing @16gtiguy, I'm going to step in and address a few things...

1) You can't evoke Article 60 with the NCEPT.

2) The NCEPT does favor lower level facilities. While some lower level hard to staff facilities have gotten the shaft, the vast majority of NCEPT selections are from 7 and below facilities.

3) Since the NCEPT inception, his facility has been able to release 1 person, even without knowing what facility you're currently at (I could take a highly educated guess), you had 3 Cat 1 selections in a single panel. You had the ability to go to high level facilities, you are choosing not to because you view them as undesirable (like how @16gtiguy feels about his current facility) and it appears you have a single dream facility you're trying to get to.

4) The ATM at your dream facility has complete input with the NCEPT. He ranks exactly how he wants selections done and the NCEPT follows them. Despite your tours, the ATM did not rank you high enough to be selected. The NCEPT panel members did not pick up level 11/12 controllers over you, the ATM did.
Click to expand...


1. I, like this other dude you’re defending, also have reasons to be where I have put in paperwork for. Has nothing to “undesirable.”

2. The manager DOESN’T have complete input in the selection process. He can rank them how he wants the NCEPT does what is right for rhe FAA first. I asked someone on the NCPET panel myself.

3. So the point I made about the tour, you missed. Which was also the same point I was making about the old system, in this other dude’s defense. In other words I too was a fan of the older system.

4. The NCEPT panel DOES NOT favor lower level facilities. The numbers favor lower level facilies. Meaning, there are like several hundred lower level facilities in the FAA. There are NOT several hundred higher level facilities in the FAA. So, naturally you will see more movement from lower level facilities. A manager or panel member, as your friend point out, will say “this guy has level 11 experience (because that automatically means better controller) let’s make sure we move him to this level 11 tower.”

5. Why again can’t Article 60 be used? Where does it say that can’t be used in the new system?

6. Also I like how you used the word “hatred.” It’s just not simply “conflicting points of view.”
 
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Tommy1204 said:
1. I, like this other dude you’re defending, also have reasons to be where I have put in paperwork for. Has nothing to “undesirable.”

2. The manager DOESN’T have complete input in the selection process. He can rank them how he wants the NCEPT does what is right for rhe FAA first. I asked someone on the NCPET panel myself.

3. So the point I made about the tour, you missed. Which was also the same point I was making about the old system, in this other dude’s defense. In other words I too was a fan of the older system.

4. The NCEPT panel DOES NOT favor lower level facilities. The numbers favor lower level facilies. Meaning, there are like several hundred lower level facilities in the FAA. There are NOT several hundred higher level facilities in the FAA. So, naturally you will see more movement from lower level facilities. A manager or panel member, as your friend point out, will say “this guy has level 11 experience (because that automatically means better controller) let’s make sure we move him to this level 11 tower.”

5. Why again can’t Article 60 be used? Where does it say that can’t be used in the new system?

6. Also I like how you used the word “hatred.” It’s just not simply “conflicting points of view.”
Click to expand...

I will attempt one final time to help educate, but I get the feeling you're simply going to believe what you'd like to believe. The NCEPT is a computer run algorithm. The NCEPT panel members do not have any say on who goes where. If a facility has 10 spots available, the program starts with the person they rank 1, if they're still eligible, they're selected, if they are no longer eligible, they are passed over, then they move to 2 and so on and so forth until all 10 spots are filled. Given that the panel members have had multiple Q+A sessions and have explained the selection process over and over again (most recently at the NATCA Convention), I'm a little at a loss for how you still believe your conspiracy theory of them disregarding the manager's ranking list and selecting how they see fit. I'd highly encourage you (as I imagine you will toss out everything I say and continue your current belief) to contact Lebovidge or Robicheau and they can explain the selection process to you to put your fears to rest.

As the NCEPT has stabilized and the number of guaranteed selection facilities was dwindled to only a few, touring and building relationships is much more important now then when the NCEPT first began, but you have to make a good impression. I've had people tour who made such negative impressions on everyone that we would never, ever select them. Again, not saying you did, but words of wisdom for other people who have tours set up. They can be a double-edged sword.

Article 60 is not used because the NCEPT is a computer run algorithm that goes directly off the manager's ranking list.

Given your level of angst with the process, my best advice to you is to message your RVP and request to know where the ATM at facility XXX ranked you on the NCEPT panel you were eligible for selection. Knowing he ranked you 10th out of 40 or 40th out of 40 will provide you with some type of closure and a reasonable expectation of your odds moving forward.
 
breakaway2000 said:
I will attempt one final time to help educate, but I get the feeling you're simply going to believe what you'd like to believe. The NCEPT is a computer run algorithm. The NCEPT panel members do not have any say on who goes where. If a facility has 10 spots available, the program starts with the person they rank 1, if they're still eligible, they're selected, if they are no longer eligible, they are passed over, then they move to 2 and so on and so forth until all 10 spots are filled. Given that the panel members have had multiple Q+A sessions and have explained the selection process over and over again (most recently at the NATCA Convention), I'm a little at a loss for how you still believe your conspiracy theory of them disregarding the manager's ranking list and selecting how they see fit. I'd highly encourage you (as I imagine you will toss out everything I say and continue your current belief) to contact Lebovidge or Robicheau and they can explain the selection process to you to put your fears to rest.

As the NCEPT has stabilized and the number of guaranteed selection facilities was dwindled to only a few, touring and building relationships is much more important now then when the NCEPT first began, but you have to make a good impression. I've had people tour who made such negative impressions on everyone that we would never, ever select them. Again, not saying you did, but words of wisdom for other people who have tours set up. They can be a double-edged sword.

Article 60 is not used because the NCEPT is a computer run algorithm that goes directly off the manager's ranking list.

Given your level of angst with the process, my best advice to you is to message your RVP and request to know where the ATM at facility XXX ranked you on the NCEPT panel you were eligible for selection. Knowing he ranked you 10th out of 40 or 40th out of 40 will provide you with some type of closure and a reasonable expectation of your odds moving forward.
Click to expand...


I don’t think you understand that I am well aware of and understand everything you just said. I’m not the one griping about how unfair the process is. It started out because of someone else making that gripe and me responding to it. In addition to that same person making comments about how level 11-12 experience should be in complete favor against level 4-9 experience. You’re talking all righteously, which I appreciate because the FAA doesn’t have enough people that do that, but have literally turned this into something it was never about to begin with.

I’m someone that has literally been waiting out the process as it was designed. You need to tell all the crap you just said to the other guy.
 
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Tommy1204 said:
I don’t think you understand that I am well aware of and understand everything you just said. I’m not the one griping about how unfair the process is. It started out because of someone else making that gripe and me responding to it. In addition to that same person making comments about how level 11-12 experience should be in complete favor of level 4-9experience. You’re talking all righteously, which I appreciate because the FAA doesn’t have enough people that do that, but have literally turned this into something it was never about to begin with.
Click to expand...
Point 2 implies that you are confused
 
breakaway2000 said:
I will attempt one final time to help educate, but I get the feeling you're simply going to believe what you'd like to believe. The NCEPT is a computer run algorithm. The NCEPT panel members do not have any say on who goes where. If a facility has 10 spots available, the program starts with the person they rank 1, if they're still eligible, they're selected, if they are no longer eligible, they are passed over, then they move to 2 and so on and so forth until all 10 spots are filled. Given that the panel members have had multiple Q+A sessions and have explained the selection process over and over again (most recently at the NATCA Convention), I'm a little at a loss for how you still believe your conspiracy theory of them disregarding the manager's ranking list and selecting how they see fit. I'd highly encourage you (as I imagine you will toss out everything I say and continue your current belief) to contact Lebovidge or Robicheau and they can explain the selection process to you to put your fears to rest.

As the NCEPT has stabilized and the number of guaranteed selection facilities was dwindled to only a few, touring and building relationships is much more important now then when the NCEPT first began, but you have to make a good impression. I've had people tour who made such negative impressions on everyone that we would never, ever select them. Again, not saying you did, but words of wisdom for other people who have tours set up. They can be a double-edged sword.

Article 60 is not used because the NCEPT is a computer run algorithm that goes directly off the manager's ranking list.

Given your level of angst with the process, my best advice to you is to message your RVP and request to know where the ATM at facility XXX ranked you on the NCEPT panel you were eligible for selection. Knowing he ranked you 10th out of 40 or 40th out of 40 will provide you with some type of closure and a reasonable expectation of your odds moving forward.
Click to expand...

I never said they disregarded ranking list. The list is not used for the whole selection.
 
Tommy1204 said:
I never said they disregarded ranking list. The list is not used for the whole selection.
Click to expand...
I understand that you believe this, I'm trying to help you understand that they do use it for the whole selection process (taking into account eligibility as the NCEPT progresses as stated above). Believe it or not I am trying to help you as it appears a large amount of stress can be taken away by knowing the nuances of the selection process and I strongly encourage you to contact the NATCA NCEPT panel members listed above for a full explanation (and they can assist in finding out where the ATM ranked you).
 
Justin said:
I am actually having this discussion with a coworker as well today if the facilty is only able to release one person. He is claiming because of article 60 that if one person has been selected up at a facilty that’s high on the list and someone who has been at the facilty is on the list for a lower priority facilty that individual on the list for a lower ranking facilty would get selected over that person due to invoking article 60.
Click to expand...
Negative
 
Obviously this is a point of contention for a lot of people. Talk to your facilty leadership and if you still have any questions regarding article 60’and how it is used with regards to the ncept then talk to someone in natca at the region youre in for full clarification this is what i did and it cleared up any questions the person had.
 

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