CaptainObvious
Legendary Member
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Lol wut
May (Q2) 2021
- Thread starter Morgan_Freeman_But_Not
- Start date
Mike Kilo
Legendary Member
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I had a buddy that worked SFO finals. Used to love correcting him when he mentioned working level 12 traffic/finals.
BigEggplant
Trusted Contributor
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Right agree 100%, but when you’re doing that and still going ATC alert for staffing, the top people don’t like that and thus put out a priority release MOU.
That's all well and good, I'd hope that any future MOU's that pull people from red places lock them to where they transfer to for a decade or so though
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I did not read his/her “their “ response because i did not think to click a quoted response. That dude has some issues. Like wtf. Someone needs to relax
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Acquired Taste
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GSO only had 2 releases but 4 people got picked up. FXE had 1 release but let 3 go. I wish the dynamic decision makers would bless my facility like that.
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I find your lack of PAC donations disturbing...
Dynamic_Decisions
Active Member
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~14,000 controllers, 98 releases. Yep, that math checks out to me.
Electricfence
Trusted Contributor
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actually 10,680 cpc, trainees most likely don't have a realistic shot at ERRs. facts do matter. also, for context, there are 118 committed outbound, with 1202 eligible to retire, and chances are many of them are not looking to move.
Honest question, What percentage of the work force is looking to move right now? How many of the 10,680? As it stands 2% of the workforce have been selected and are in the process of moving, what should it be?
Trust me, us at GSO have no idea how 4 of us got out either. Think of the Spider-Man pointing at other Spider-Mans meme
Dynamic_Decisions
Active Member
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Is there a way to see the amount of ERRs currently in the system? That would be a good indicator of the performance.
Dontbotherme
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If you referring to me and my “non referenced percentages,” you’re more than welcome to transfer here and see them for yourself or contact our current facility training rep and I’m sure they can get you a redacted version showing data over the last 20-25 years. The numbers presented were what was true when the A80/LAX priority release was negotiated. Hence why the local union tried to negotiate priority releases for 9s and higher and the Agency reneged on that agreement. Then, the National said they weren’t going to allow us to “rob from Peter to pay Paul.” So the ranking list where we could’ve selected numerous people from places like: MIA, CLT, S56, F11, D10, M98, et cetera was thrown out and we started being forced to only get people from places like: POU, LEX, AGS, CSG, et cetera.
It would be skewed and not useful to whether NCEPT is working or not. A facility as small as Elmira alone can have hundreds of ERRs out as there is no cap on how many places employees can submit paperwork to at a time. The best indicator of NCEPT being a colossal failure is how many places aren’t able to release people, especially the mid level facilities, where the bulk of the upward mobility and transfers should come from.
Nothing beats a good old fashioned "these are the facts look them up yourself" arguement, very Trumpish.
NCEPT is not the same as the NRP, these are two separate things.
Dontbotherme
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Get off your political high horse. You have zero knowledge of the training success numbers presented to get the priority release. Yet, you don’t want to believe the word of someone who actually went through the training data telling you what the numbers were without seeing said data for yourself. NCEPT and the National Release Policy go hand in hand. If facilities are locked from releasing people, it doesn’t mean that NCEPT is working because people are being allowed to move from Lincoln Tower to Atlanta Tower. That is not an indication of success. That is an indication of the colossal failure and lunacy of the NRP and NCEPT jointly. To prohibit controllers from transferring, for years, because of the mismanagement of staffing is ridiculous. Then, to allow level 4 tower controllers to transfer to 11s and 12s is pure idiocy.
Electricfence
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Level 8-10 there are 78 facilities. There are 46 level 11 and above, and 187 level 7 and below. there is no way the 78 mid level facilities alone would be able to fill the needs of the top 46 facilities. so yes you might help the level 8-10 employees, but now you've made it mandatory for the 7 and below facility employees go somewhere else they might not want to go just so the needs of the agency are met. I absolutely agree and don't need to see data that an 8-10 is more successful than a 5-7 at an 11-12, but now you've just created a hurdle for employee progression, when that's not what some want or care about. it just creates a new problem and doesn't solve the overall stress of the workforce.
Sir this is a donkey at best, and the NCEPT and NRP function hand in hand but they're separate so far as their negotiated terms are considered. Get bitchy at lower level controllers all you want or press for changes to the NRP and placement of VRAs/new hires. NCEPT worked amazingly for its goal of reduced release times, the NRP forces lower level facilities to go wherever they can or face stagnancy while they are filling mid levels with VRA hires.
Your suggestion of bottlenecking a chunk of the workforce for no reason other than they do what they can to move on with their careers is asinine when the issue is blatantly clear that mid-level facilities are stuck in a purgatory of neither receiving controllers from lower levels or releasing any because they fill them up with crap trainees.
Opening up slots in mid level facilities and not filling them with VRA and NEST people, and instead placing a priority on lower level controllers to move into mid levels would alleviate a good chunk of over reaching facilities.
Or we should base all of our training/placement/staffing off of N90/A80 or P80 or whatever place people most likely don't want to go but choose to out of desperation due to shitty staffing placement policies.
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Dontbotherme
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Your argument of creating a hurdle is the exact same argument low level facilities make when a four level cap is suggested by anyone in the union. However, these low level facilities aren’t the ones dealing with this inability/inexperience and working non volunteer six day work weeks due to staffing. They feel it is almost their right to be able to transfer from CSG to ATL simply because they’re at a facility that can release them when they aren’t anywhere near qualified. The best methods forward would be to have all new hires go to a 4-7 facility (based on background or aptitude at academy), a four level transfer cap, allow CPCs from higher level facilities to transfer down (say after being CPC for 10 years), save pay, and train the next batch of controllers to move up. The mid levels should be the heart and soul of movements.
And get rid of VRA and NEST movements that take up unnecessary space for CPCs to transfer into mid-level facilities.
