New time off between shifts mandate. Big change

[Kramer]

It’s not one size fits all. This post may be true at facilities that don’t have convective weather complexity. But a lot of places don’t have anyone that want straight swings in the summer because the whole building burns down every day at noon.

I know a few facilities affected by this and they rotate weekly. One week, all days. Next week, all eves. And one week a month, all mids.

We did this during COVID and I slept great.

 

[FlightOfTheShortGuy]

I heard the 12 hours before the mid stays, 10 hours before all other shifts. Only new thing I've heard is the option to work a six hour shift on your fourth day (before a mid) but you have to make up the hours earlier in your work week.

Still not seeing a great way to implement this at 24 hour facilities.

Why is it so hard for the older generation to go away from 40 hour work weeks? It was an arbitrary number they came up with 100 years ago. Times have changed and it’s outdated, same with OT only being 1.5x pay. This shit needs to be updated and I’m sick of how archaic it all feels. Now I know we don’t have the staffing to truly implement that yet, but we absolutely could start working towards having everything past 34 or 35 or 36 hours worked count as OT. So if you work 48 hours a week, 14 could be OT.

I know this is more of a rant too but it really bothers me with the notion “you have to make those 4 hours up earlier in the week”. Fucking why? To hit that magic number 40 hours? So dumb. Rant over lol.

 

[ManBearPig]

Straight shift scheduling isn't this super easy plug and play thing you guys are making it out to be.

Assuming a 2 person mid requirement. In theory, 5 mid shifts could be covered by a 2 person mid line. Still leaves you needing coverage the other 2 mids. So those 2 lines are then covered by 2 people on the reverse rattler of variation (Mid-mid-eve-day-day)? What's the point of keeping everyone else on straight shifts then? The whole thing falls apart with leave off the mid shift lines anyways.

 

[Traffic8Out]

Your dogshit schedules are what your coworkers want to work. Nobody’s local is negotiating schedules nobody wants to work.

My schedule is actually nice. I work no mids and have no overtime making 200k. I am fine. I’m talking in general about the state of ATC in the United States when you combine shift work and 6 day work weeks. The people on 6 day work weeks will be at their facility every day unless they have the staffing to accomdate straight swings/days etc.

 

[Nothanks]

Straight shift scheduling isn't this super easy plug and play thing you guys are making it out to be.

Assuming a 2 person mid requirement. In theory, 5 mid shifts could be covered by a 2 person mid line. Still leaves you needing coverage the other 2 mids. So those 2 lines are then covered by 2 people on the reverse rattler of variation (Mid-mid-eve-day-day)? What's the point of keeping everyone else on straight shifts then? The whole thing falls apart with leave off the mid shift lines anyways.

Yea it doesn’t work all that great. Everyone comes up with something they think works or they like individually. Build the whole schedule for your entire facility or area, and present to your coworkers. Then your rep still has to go and negotiate it. Holes pop up in a lot of scenarios. It’s easy to sit here and say “oh do this”. Ok hot shot, build it then.

 

[Raise when?]

We had a supe that would come in at 6 or 645 and if she couldn’t find you, put you on SL… if she worked that mid, she would ask what kind of leave we wanted to use for the last 2. No one else cared…

What an insane person

 

[Spoony90]

Straight shift scheduling isn't this super easy plug and play thing you guys are making it out to be.

Assuming a 2 person mid requirement. In theory, 5 mid shifts could be covered by a 2 person mid line. Still leaves you needing coverage the other 2 mids. So those 2 lines are then covered by 2 people on the reverse rattler of variation (Mid-mid-eve-day-day)? What's the point of keeping everyone else on straight shifts then? The whole thing falls apart with leave off the mid shift lines anyways.

This is the biggest issue our facility is running. We have 2-3 people willing to do the straight mid line. This is a mess for the mid level 24/7 understaffed facilities

 

[J8ke]

Straight shift scheduling isn't this super easy plug and play thing you guys are making it out to be.

Assuming a 2 person mid requirement. In theory, 5 mid shifts could be covered by a 2 person mid line. Still leaves you needing coverage the other 2 mids. So those 2 lines are then covered by 2 people on the reverse rattler of variation (Mid-mid-eve-day-day)? What's the point of keeping everyone else on straight shifts then? The whole thing falls apart with leave off the mid shift lines anyways.

For those facilities with enough staffing to do this: can also be covered 3 controllers on straight mid lines.
Mid Mid Mid Mid Mid Rdo Rdo
Rdo Rdo Mid Mid Mid Mid Mid
Mid Mid Rdo Rdo Rdo Mid Mid - 4/10s or a 3 person mid on one day

 

[32andBelow]

The big problem with using the 6 hour day to accommodate a rattler is you will be down those bodies for 2 hours once they leave. The popular day shifts before a mid seem to be 0530-1330 or 0600-1400. With either of them, if you just work 0530-1130 or 0600-1200, well from 1130-1330 or 1200-1400, you are down those bodies you used to have today. The larger facilities might be able to make that happen without shifting other things around and just "suffer through it" but the smaller facilities must change something around as they can't lose those bodies for 2 hours. It won't be just plug-and-play with this "new" rattler like some people think.

But straight shifts, you are bang on. It doesn't change any staffing numbers at all. Like you said, instead of 5 different people working a shift for a 5 day period, it'll be the same person instead. No different than if they did a shift swap today for an entire week to work that shift.

Except you’d be having someone else working 10 hours earlier in their week. 40 hours is 40 hours

 

[DankVectorz]

We do alternating day/swing shifts. The shifts you work as a day are usually either 06-14, 07-15, 11-1900. The shifts for swing are usually either 13-2100, 14-22, 15-23, or 16-00.

So for your day shift week it might look like
Mon: 11-19
Tue-Wed: 07-15
Thu: 06-14
Fri: 2300-0700
Sat OT: 2300-0700

Then following week for swings

Mon: 1600-0000
Tue-Thur: 1500-2300
Fri: 1400-2200
Sat OT: 1300-2100

Personally I like this schedule much better than the rattler. Granted my kid isn’t in school yet, but even then I’d prefer this over rattler. And we have enough people that like mids that if you don’t like them you usually don’t need to work them. Sometimes there’s variations for staffing or swaps etc but this is the general layout.

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

So for your day shift week it might look like
Mon: 11-19
Tue-Wed: 07-15
Thu: 06-14
Fri: 2300-0700
Sat OT: 2300-0700

So you're at work all seven days of the week?

 

[BCHOOSIER]

The six hour fourth day just doesn't make sense to me. You still wake up and start the day at the same time. You work longer your first two days and because of the 10 hour rule between shifts you're at the facility later on your third day. It will also force additional afternoon and late evening coverage.
If you're going to force people into working more than eight hours in a day and rest was really a priority, I think 4-10s with an RDO before the MID would be better for everyone.
Example... E, E or D, D, RDO, Mid, RDO, RDO.
You could even do straight shifts on your first three shifts and never worry about a quick turn. If done right, the overlap of the 10 hour shifts will help with most staffing coverage. I know management, and some on here, will point to more OT but that's going to happen regardless. By staggering all these shifts to cover a six hour day, it will make an already tight schedule for most even tighter. Less people will be eligible to work OT and 2 hours assigned on the back or front will be the norm. That 1530-0030 shift is now 1530-0130. That 0600-1400 will be 0400-1400. If you're at a Z working a Mid, be ready to take more airspace because facilities will be ATC-limited/0 often.
I understand NATCA should be in favor of improving rest and fatigue but this 9-9-8-6-8 aint it. Furthermore, NATCA should be fighting that if the Agency wants to standardized working more than 8 hours in a day, an extra day of REST will be given during the week. Isn't that what this is all about, fatigue and rest. Pitching this schedule is just smoke and mirrors for the Agency.

 

[ATC Zero]

need a shift? Gotta swap the whole week!

Been that way for a few years when every line has quickturns it’s rough. Use of SL about to go up in 2025.

 

[32andBelow]

The six hour fourth day just doesn't make sense to me. You still wake up and start the day at the same time. You work longer your first two days and because of the 10 hour rule between shifts you're at the facility later on your third day. It will also force additional afternoon and late evening coverage.
If you're going to force people into working more than eight hours in a day and rest was really a priority, I think 4-10s with an RDO before the MID would be better for everyone.
Example... E, E or D, D, RDO, Mid, RDO, RDO.
You could even do straight shifts on your first three shifts and never worry about a quick turn. If done right, the overlap of the 10 hour shifts will help with most staffing coverage. I know management, and some on here, will point to more OT but that's going to happen regardless. By staggering all these shifts to cover a six hour day, it will make an already tight schedule for most even tighter. Less people will be eligible to work OT and 2 hours assigned on the back or front will be the norm. That 1530-0030 shift is now 1530-0130. That 0600-1400 will be 0400-1400. If you're at a Z working a Mid, be ready to take more airspace because facilities will be ATC-limited/0 often.
I understand NATCA should be in favor of improving rest and fatigue but this 9-9-8-6-8 aint it. Furthermore, NATCA should be fighting that if the Agency wants to standardized working more than 8 hours in a day, an extra day of REST will be given during the week. Isn't that what this is all about, fatigue and rest. Pitching this schedule is just smoke and mirrors for the Agency.

You don’t have to do that schedule. But a 6 hour shift is something we didn’t have before. More options is better.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Been that way for a few years when every line has quickturns it’s rough. Use of SL about to go up in 2025.

SL Abuse letters already getting handed out like crazy

 

[BCHOOSIER]

You don’t have to do that schedule. But a 6 hour shift is something we didn’t have before. More options is better.

So do you think this will be an AWS?

 

[GroundClutter]

Isn't that what this is all about, fatigue and rest. Pitching this schedule is just smoke and mirrors for the Agency.

Preach.

Knee jerk we have to do something!

 

[ATC Zero]

SL Abuse letters already getting handed out like crazy

Sucks if your facility is already doing that. It’s a slippery slope for facilities that need OT to run the operation, and if people see that there will be no improvement for years the quality or willingness to train slowly goes downhill, already seeing that first hard without sick leave letters just sick of management and inept trainees.
I’ll pay for a copay DR note if needed. Or take a med that’s got a temp down time and be like I can show up for extra duties or take sick leave, what would you like me to do?

 

[CoffeeIV]

Personally I like this schedule much better than the rattler. Granted my kid isn’t in school yet, but even then I’d prefer this over rattler. And we have enough people that like mids that if you don’t like them you usually don’t need to work them. Sometimes there’s variations for staffing or swaps etc but this is the general layout.

I feel like that will change once you don't see your kid except when you wake up early to see them off to school/daycare. Then it's no different than doing the rattler just less family time.

 

[Spoony90]

The six hour fourth day just doesn't make sense to me. You still wake up and start the day at the same time. You work longer your first two days and because of the 10 hour rule between shifts you're at the facility later on your third day. It will also force additional afternoon and late evening coverage.
If you're going to force people into working more than eight hours in a day and rest was really a priority, I think 4-10s with an RDO before the MID would be better for everyone.
Example... E, E or D, D, RDO, Mid, RDO, RDO.
You could even do straight shifts on your first three shifts and never worry about a quick turn. If done right, the overlap of the 10 hour shifts will help with most staffing coverage. I know management, and some on here, will point to more OT but that's going to happen regardless. By staggering all these shifts to cover a six hour day, it will make an already tight schedule for most even tighter. Less people will be eligible to work OT and 2 hours assigned on the back or front will be the norm. That 1530-0030 shift is now 1530-0130. That 0600-1400 will be 0400-1400. If you're at a Z working a Mid, be ready to take more airspace because facilities will be ATC-limited/0 often.
I understand NATCA should be in favor of improving rest and fatigue but this 9-9-8-6-8 aint it. Furthermore, NATCA should be fighting that if the Agency wants to standardized working more than 8 hours in a day, an extra day of REST will be given during the week. Isn't that what this is all about, fatigue and rest. Pitching this schedule is just smoke and mirrors for the Agency.

RDO before mid is the way to go. It’s what I do now.
Swing
Swing
Swing
Bang
Mid

I’d love the 4 10s with RDO before mid. It be my wet dream come true