May (Q3) 2023

[Luckyrun]

Keep NCEPT like this and open up USAJob bids for big tracons/centers?
What’s the issues with that?

Well it makes sense so right off the bat, no

 

[abc1234]

If you weren't picked up, then ORD didn't have you ranked above other people so when their time to select came up, someone ORD ranked higher on their list was chosen instead. I'm not sure what their facility priority order was this panel but IAH could only lose 1 person as well and they went to I90. If I90 was a higher priority over ORD, then you wouldn't have even been able to be selected for ORD anyways. If you actually want to go to ORD, just keep that ERR in. IAH picked up 4 people this panel, you guys are in a much better place than a lot of facilities so you aren't catching much sympathy from me.

I don't think this guy's gotten sympathy from anyone 😂

 

[RH316]

In all seriousness tho guys, we’ve been repeating the same thread every 3 months the past 4+ years. If your facility can release, and you have a shot at a new facility that can pick up— you have to be stroking the shaft of the facrep and cupping the balls of the ATM, or you have no shot of getting picked up. How many times do we have to go over the same shit every few months???

 

[Bandit117]

You guys can't have it both ways. You can't complain about how shitty staffing is and then think these rules were a good idea. The math just doesn't math. If you have a staffing target of 100+, it is impossible to staff it with 1 body per quarter. 4 bodies per year and you're looking at 25 years to get 100 CPC's assuming every one gets to CPC, no one quits, no one bids a supe job, and no one retires. Maybe I'm the dumb one though. So please, go ahead and break it down for me how NCT is going to get to 161 CPCs taking 1 ERR every 3 months. But hey, at least the guy from SAV was able to get back home to Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

If a CPC desires to go work at CID, they should have a shot to go before some stupid new hire. That new hire who would have gone to CID will now end up at SAV or somewhere else similar. It’s a not a big deal and the new rules make it a possibility for people to transfer to facilities that don’t usually get to pick up anyone. Someone who wants to be at CID is better than someone who throws in for NCT with no intent to certify, but just to get out. they will spend some time there, waste some training time, maybe get a scope or 2 and then wash or withdraw for a sweet nest list. There’s a good chance someone who chose CID won’t ever leave. It’s that also part of the issue, continuity of staffing since tons of people want to be somewhere else? If you put people where they want to be, they won’t be desperate to do anything just to get out.

 

[boots]

The FAA literally has controllers fighting with each other to distract from how bad ncept is. They also got controllers wishing their coworkers got downgraded and therefor paycuts

My guy, look at places like CVG and MSY and then look at AUS and BNA. The current level system is absolute dog shit. Having a bravo is propelling these dead ass towers up in levels while people with Charlie’s doing 2-300k more ops a year make the same pay with less people.

 

[Termine]

In other words, it's to allow transfer/movement around the NAS. If people are fooled into thinking NCEPT is the solution to staffing the NAS then have I got a bridge to sell you.

When was the last time the agency placed a prior-experience hire at ORD? When was the last time they placed an off-the-street hire at ORD?

Article 42, Section 5 of the Slate Book is word-for-word identical to Article 42, Section 6 of the 2009-era Red Book—and I wouldn't be surprised if it's older than that. Things have changed and NCEPT is now the way the agency is staffing the NAS, at least the higher-level terminal facilities in the NAS.

 

[32andBelow]

My guy, look at places like CVG and MSY and then look at AUS and BNA. The current level system is absolute dog shit. Having a bravo is propelling these dead ass towers up in levels while people with Charlie’s doing 2-300k more ops a year make the same pay with less people.

Idk what your point is. The argument you should be making is to get those other places raised not to get different places lowered. The goal is to Drive all our pay up. Not down

 

[boots]

If a CPC desires to go work at CID, they should have a shot to go before some stupid new hire. That new hire who would have gone to CID will now end up at SAV or somewhere else similar. It’s a not a big deal and the new rules make it a possibility for people to transfer to facilities that don’t usually get to pick up anyone. Someone who wants to be at CID is better than someone who throws in for NCT with no intent to certify, but just to get out. they will spend some time there, waste some training time, maybe get a scope or 2 and then wash or withdraw for a sweet nest list. There’s a good chance someone who chose CID won’t ever leave. It’s that also part of the issue, continuity of staffing since tons of people want to be somewhere else? If you put people where they want to be, they won’t be desperate to do anything just to get out.

Sorry buddy. Terminals are 7s and below. Wave at the people who got their name picked out of a hat to make millions more than you at a 12 center.

 

[ChuckNovember]

6 total releases from centers. 4 from Houston, 1 from Cleveland and Fort Worth.

What percentage of controllers are at centers? 50-60%? And yet they have 5% of the releases.

roughly 40% of the workforce

 

[Phanatical]

At least the centers have a somewhat reliable influx of academy grads. There are some 8 and above terminal facilities that will be permanently understaffed because they aren’t desirable enough for ERRs and are too complex for prior experience hires and NEST placements.

 

[32andBelow]

At least the centers have a somewhat reliable influx of academy grads. There are some 8 and above terminal facilities that will be permanently understaffed because they aren’t desirable enough for ERRs and are too complex for prior experience hires and NEST placements.

How are they too complex. Why don’t they fix that aspect of the training process?

 

[the inquirer]

Please tell me how you feel about this:
The person selected for NCT on this round was selected in June 2021 as well and said person declined it then. Said person must be doing something right with management....

(this is meant to aggravate you but it is just facts)

 

[bravounite33]

Keep in mind only 13-14% of the workforce are even at facilities that could release someone this panel. I know people don't like NCEPT but let's be real, the agency not getting us new hires is the much bigger issue. The fact that over 85% of the FAA controller workforce work at facilities that are too short to allow a transfer is a complete disgrace. No transfer program that anyone can come up with fixes that issue.

 

[HappyController]

Keep NCEPT like this and open up USAJob bids for big tracons/centers?
What’s the issues with that?

I am surprised more tracons don’t have open bids. Be interesting if they had a cut off like open bid a place until that facility hits 75% staffing (or projected) then roll said facility back in NCEPT only process.

 

[ChuckNovember]

At least the centers have a somewhat reliable influx of academy grads. There are some 8 and above terminal facilities that will be permanently understaffed because they aren’t desirable enough for ERRs and are too complex for prior experience hires and NEST placements.

Fair point but that also means anyone at a high level TRACON chose to be there

 

[kombucha23]

Please tell me how you feel about this:
The person selected for NCT on this round was selected in June 2021 as well and said person declined it then. Said person must be doing something right with management....

(this is meant to aggravate you but it is just facts)

Doesn’t aggravate me cause I don’t know the facts of the situation I guess. Life happens and they obviously weren’t turned off by them declining in 2021 if they chose them again.

 

[ChuckNovember]

I actually like the new rules. Almost 100% of the possible movements were made. With the amount of time that people have been waiting at this point I’m happy that they will staff up to 100% projected. If we could un-fuck the centers I think we’d have a pretty “solid transfer system”, but I won’t hold my breath.

Edit: maybe slightly more laxed rules for center controllers trying to go to the hard to staff up/downs and TRACONs that don’t get academy grads? 🤔

 

[Move78]

For staffing of the NAS as a whole, yes. Once again, I'm all for maximizing movement but you have to balance it. Prioritize the top facilities but introduce dynamic selection caps so SCT doesn't get 20 bodies and then D10 gets 2. Have a round 2 where maybe SCT, NCT, D10, and A80 get their top 5. Then the big towers get their top 3.

It’s not that simple, NCEPT has to operate with the NRP and the NRP doesn’t allow you to just send everyone “their top 5”. Wouldn’t that be easy. Also if you do any large tracon in round 2 their list will be dry by then. And maximizing available movement was their stated goal during this panel.

Then you you focus on the 8s and 9s. And after all of that, then you can maximize movement to the 7s and below.

There’s not nearly enough available losses in the system to accomplish this in the current context.

Under this current set of rules, it meant that the level 6 tower that was 99.9% projected with a cpc target of 11 and was ranked 300 on the priority list deserved to get someone more than a big tracon with a 100+ cpc target deserved to get a second person.

This is a reasonable critique. Previously however the system would make it close to impossible to ever ERR to that 6 tower. Was that a good thing? The overwhelming majority says no. But yes the big tracons need more inbounds. On the flip side if you ask the big tracons some of them don’t actually want most of their list.

These rules worked really well for people at places that were well staffed country clubs that no one wanted to leave. It allowed 3 HOU guys the opportunity to get to DFW/IAH. 2 SFB guys to get to F11. 2 FLL guys to go to MCO and IAH.

This one is confusing. If no one wanted to leave no one would have left. The fat places always allow the most outbound movement. That’s by design.
Unless you mean the receiving facility in which case these facilities will always have the largest lists and therefore their lists will take longer to dry up. It’s also the first panel that technically allowed receiving facilities to fill all vacancies. Also F11 is a bad example, no one would ever agree that F11 doesn’t need staffing help.

It let the rich get richer while hindering movement to places that have shit staffing that just got shittier.

No red facilities got shittier after selecting inbounds. Red facilities get shittier during the deviation rounds.

 

[boots]

Doesn’t aggravate me cause I don’t know the facts of the situation I guess. Life happens and they obviously weren’t turned off by them declining in 2021 if they chose them again.

Reminds me of a situation I saw recently. Girl errs to a facility and washes out. Then gets picked up to the same facility with a move package years later.

Some people are getting their 2nd shot at a facility before people are getting 1.

 

[Acquired Taste]

It’s not that simple, NCEPT has to operate with the NRP and the NRP doesn’t allow you to just send everyone “their top 5”. Wouldn’t that be easy. Also if you do any large tracon in round 2 their list will be dry by then. And maximizing available movement was their stated goal during this panel.

There’s not nearly enough available losses in the system to accomplish this in the current context.

This is a reasonable critique. Previously however the system would make it close to impossible to ever ERR to that 6 tower. Was that a good thing? The overwhelming majority says no. But yes the big tracons need more inbounds. On the flip side if you ask the big tracons some of them don’t actually want most of their list.

This one is confusing. If no one wanted to leave no one would have left. The fat places always allow the most outbound movement. That’s by design.
Unless you mean the receiving facility in which case these facilities will always have the largest lists and therefore their lists will take longer to dry up. It’s also the first panel that technically allowed receiving facilities to fill all vacancies. Also F11 is a bad example, no one would ever agree that F11 doesn’t need staffing help.

No red facilities got shittier after selecting inbounds. Red facilities get shittier during the deviation rounds.

Alright, I'll admit I didn't communicate what I meant very well but yes, I understand you have to operate within the confines of the NRP and I was trying to say the tracons would be round 1, big towers in round 2, 8s and 9s in a round 3, and everyone else afterwards. When I say they get their top 5 or top 3, I meant a cap on selections in which a place like SCT only gets 5 (likely their top 5 since they always draft pretty high) and then the next place gets their "top 5 available." I mentioned somewhere else in this thread that I think a reasonable cap would be however many selections it takes to make a facilities projected staffing go up by 2% in a given panel. To get A80 and NCT's projected staffing to go up by 2%, they need 5 inbounds each in a given panel so make that the cap. SCT needs 7. Make the minimum amount of selections 2 so red towers with a target of 30 don't just pick up one person and they're done.

Not saying F11 doesn't need help given I've heard they are on 6 day weeks as well but they were projected at 89% and got 3 bodies while A80 was 69% and NCT was 76%, yet got 1 body each. If F11 was able to get their 3 after A80 and NCT and made got all their possible moves (which is likely given it seems SFB controllers were very selective), that would be fine. But because of the way the rules were designed this panel, there was no chance A80 or NCT were ever going to get more than 2 being that there ranking lists were only 5 or 6 people long in the first place. That is an oversight by the committee and I would argue that A80, NCT, and every other big tracon that only selected 1 person were red facilities that got shittier after selecting inbounds because the amount of attrition from all sources between quarterly panels far outpaces the 1 selection they made, meaning projected staffing will be lower by the next panel than it was on this panel.

And once again, I've said that I'm all for making the maximum possible moves in a given panel. But if you want to go to a level 7 and below that receives AGs, you should be the bottom priority. Fill all those moves at the end of the panel if they still exist.