July 2020

[ATCNOMAD]

I’m not completely closed to the idea of a cap... 4 levels would definitely be better than 3, but with the current NCEPT, I’m not a fan. A bunch of things would have to change in order for me to be on-board with that idea. Like not being stuck at low levels forever. Granted, I’m fortunate enough to be at a mid level now, but I was in a low level for a while and the “no light at the end of the tunnel” thing got old really fast. I feel for everyone who’s still in that situation. I have a sibling that went straight to a high level from the get-go and was successful. Some people just get luckier than others as to where they end up from the start.

Before NCEPT it was normal to be at your 1st facility for 2-5 years. You usually only got the short end if you were ok with going to an undesirable facility like a Memphis (when it was a level 10) Detroit or a center no one wants like New York or Oakland. But more on the 5 year side if it was a desirable facility. Lots of people would go to random mid levels to gain experience because of the SCTs of the world that "wanted radar experience." It seems like now days if people can't be at their dream facility within 6-8 years of getting hired they are highly pissed the hell off. When in all honesty going to your dream facility isn't owed to anyone. I just think a 4 level cap would help more people have the opportunity of reaching their dream facility within 10 years. Because with current NCEPT it is technically possible to be stuck at a low level for 20 years. And that is completely unfair

I’ve had a strong interest in A80 from 2017. The achievement of making it at a hard TRACON has been a goal of mine after RTF and reaching certification. Perhaps I should resubmit my ERR paperwork (after consulting the wife, of course) and see if that is perhaps my destiny.

Robertb, you still a trainer there?

Being that you have RTF and I'm assuming an approach control certification, from what Robert says they would love to have you. You shouldn't take the 2.6 years that is so unacceptable lol.

 

[LEAD004]

Before NCEPT it was normal to be at your 1st facility for 2-5 years. You usually only got the short end if you were ok with going to an undesirable facility like a Memphis (when it was a level 10) Detroit or a center no one wants like New York or Oakland. But more on the 5 year side if it was a desirable facility. Lots of people would go to random mid levels to gain experience because of the SCTs of the world that "wanted radar experience." It seems like now days if people can't be at their dream facility within 6-8 years of getting hired they are highly pissed the hell off. When in all honesty going to your dream facility isn't owed to anyone. I just think a 4 level cap would help more people have the opportunity of reaching their dream facility within 10 years. Because with current NCEPT it is technically possible to be stuck at a low level for 20 years. And that is completely unfair

Ya, I definitely concur that there needs to be a better way for people to work their way up so we don’t have people making huge jumps with the odds not in their favor... the current system just doesn’t promote that. It’s unfortunate. I see both sides.

 

[Super Salt]

Being that you have RTF and I'm assuming an approach control certification, from what Robert says they would love to have you. You shouldn't take the 2.6 years that is so unacceptable lol.

The challenge is what I enjoy. Hence why I’ve been trying to get to DAB for years now as well.

As sickening as it may sound, I tend to recite/remember the rules of working approach, because I’m at a tower now and the ole “use it or lose it” concept does truly exist.

 

[Shikaka]

Again, make PrevExp hires start at the bottom like everyone else. A level cap is pointless if the mid level facilities are filled with direct hires.

 

[ManBearPig]

Again, make PrevExp hires start at the bottom like everyone else. A level cap is pointless if the mid level facilities are filled with direct hires.

Well to be fair most military direct hires that go straight to mid level facilities seem to end up at low level facilities, after wasting 2+ years of their trainers time.

 

[Shikaka]

Well to be fair most military direct hires that go straight to mid level facilities seem to end up at low level facilities, after wasting 2+ years of their trainers time.

Hence, start them low so the CPCs at lower facilities can move up instead of spots being filled by someone who is gonna wash most likely anyway, then wash from the lower level they get NESTed to.

And send them to the academy too as a pass/fail.

 

[Dolan]

Because with current NCEPT it is technically possible to be stuck at a low level for 20 years. And that is completely unfair

Yup, they need a light at the end of the tunnel provision. If you end up at a shitty tower and your dream facillity is anywhere remotely desirable getting there is mathematically impossible. You'll wait your entire career easily unless the current system changes

 

[ATCNOMAD]

Well to be fair most military direct hires that go straight to mid level facilities seem to end up at low level facilities, after wasting 2+ years of their trainers time.

Really? That's news to me.

Again, make PrevExp hires start at the bottom like everyone else. A level cap is pointless if the mid level facilities are filled with direct hires.

Sending PrevExp to low level facilities doesn't change anything without cap levels. Mid levels won't get new hires and the people at low levels will bid to high levels like they do now. The only way to get mid level facilities well staffed IS with level caps.

 

[ManBearPig]

Really? That's news to me.

We lost 5 of 6. Probably going to certify one on an extension when we start training again. So we will be 5 of 7. And almost everyone I talk to at other similar facilities have the same problem.

 

[ATCNOMAD]

We lost 5 of 6. Probably going to certify one on an extension when we start training again. So we will be 5 of 7. And almost everyone I talk to at other similar facilities have the same problem.

So transfers from lower level facilities do better?

 

[Shikaka]

Sending PrevExp to low level facilities doesn't change anything without cap levels. Mid levels won't get new hires and the people at low levels will bid to high levels like they do now. The only way to get mid level facilities well staffed IS with level caps.

Why do you think low level CPCs bid high...because the mid levels are filled with prevexp hires and the competition is brutal to get to qnd mid level facility. Meanwhile no one from mid levels can go anywhere cause the hires they do get (prevexp) all wash...

 

[Shikaka]

So transfers from lower level facilities do better?

A transfer CPC from a lower level is almost guaranteed to be better than a previous experience hire...

 

[PushingTin]

We lost 5 of 6. Probably going to certify one on an extension when we start training again. So we will be 5 of 7. And almost everyone I talk to at other similar facilities have the same problem.

Military controllers skipping the OKC "Screen" and showing up to facilities sounding like they've never talked to a plane in their life, is a huge problem for sure. Huge drag on facility resources and manpower as well. Tons of extra work being dumped on facilities who by nature of NCEPT and where they sit, already have an indefinite revolving door with 2/3rds already wanting out

 

[ATCNOMAD]

Why do you think low level CPCs bid high...because the mid levels are filled with prevexp hires and the competition is brutal to get to qnd mid level facility. Meanwhile no one from mid levels can go anywhere cause the hires they do get (prevexp) all wash...

I thought the majority of terminal new hires pre exp or not go to level 7 and below. If a large number of pre exp are going to facility levels higher than that its news to me.

Military controllers skipping the OKC "Screen" and showing up to facilities sounding like they've never talked to a plane in their life, is a huge problem for sure. Huge drag on facility resources and manpower as well. Tons of extra work being dumped on facilities who by nature of NCEPT and where they sit, already have an indefinite revolving door with 2/3rds already wanting out

I thought they only went to level 7 and below facilities.

 

[Shikaka]

I thought the majority of terminal new hires pre exp or not go to level 7 and below. If a large number of pre exp are going to facility levels higher than that its news to me.

Majority of previous experience military hires fill mid level slots, new hires for terminal are mostly 6 and below though they say 7 is included it's rare. A level cap would effectively kill any movement for lower level facilities since military hires get placed mid level continuously are wash more often than not.

Lower level CPCs bidding to higher level facilities is a desperation move since military hires kill their chances of mid level facilites. A cap is pointless, move military controllers into lower level facilities and open mid levels for NCEPT transfers.

 

[ATCNOMAD]

Majority of previous experience military hires fill mid level slots, new hires for terminal are mostly 6 and below though they say 7 is included it's rare. A level cap would effectively kill any movement for lower level facilities since military hires get placed mid level continuously are wash more often than not.

Lower level CPCs bidding to higher level facilities is a desperation move since military hires kill their chances of mid level facilites. A cap is pointless, move military controllers into lower level facilities and open mid levels for NCEPT transfers.

Wait, so you are saying pre exp terminal new hires are going to facilities higher than level 7? Terminal pre exp hires are getting hired at level 8s, 9s and 10s? Is that true?

 

[Shikaka]

Wait, so you are saying pre exp terminal new hires are going to facilities higher than level 7? Terminal pre exp hires are getting hired at level 8s, 9s and 10s? Is that true?

Yes, examples like PDX and BOI...

 

[ATCNOMAD]

Yes, examples like PDX and BOI...

Isn't BOI a level 7? PDX is an 8 though. That's surprising

 

[Mike Kilo]

Isn't BOI a level 7? PDX is an 8 thought. That's surprising

BOI was bumped back up to an eight after pulling in Bozeman airspace. GEG is hoping for the same when they pull in PSC approach.

 

[Shikaka]

Isn't BOI a level 7? PDX is an 8 though. That's surprising

BOI is an 8 up down, for as much as a lower level CPC would love to go to either of those facilities, it won't happen because military hires get direct into there on a revolving basis, yet they have a horrible success rate.