August (Q4) 2023

[PointSixty5stalker]

Call your NCEPT rep.

Thanks. Just did. Confirmed. I told him list I had doesn’t show name and he said his did. I’ll believe it when I get the paperwork.

 

[ATC123]

Only 88 selections is depressing.

This keeps getting mentioned, but how many selections were yo hoping for? I heard that they selected every one who was available. Looking at the Demand sheet there's a bunch of facilities that have no one trying to leave...should the agency force movement out of them?

Direct to hire should be in place over NCEPT. I know hiring competent managers is a long shot across the board, but I don’t understand how your current manager and another manager cannot cohesively discuss a legitimate transfer of an employee.

Use the PPT the same way with the % staffing, but weigh projected a little bit more. If DEV1 is up for certification and we’re four weeks into NCEPT, that DEV1 gets certified and doesn’t count towards manning, allowing CPC to transfer.

My take: Jim Bob Dicklesworth wants to go from shithole FTW to shithole ORF, has 5+ years experience as CPC, types up an application, applies…it should be up to the managers to both go “okay releasing is above 85%, so we can release and gaining is below 100%, I’ll stamp it and send it away in encrypted email.” Gaining manager gets it, and it’s approved. Both approvals get sent to HR and it’s handled appropriately within two to three pay periods, but no more than 10 pay periods (if requested by employee).

This way, the Union’s micropenis isn’t in it and it’s handled by the actual agency you’re employed by.

Maybe this is how it used to be handled, idk, because I wasn’t around for the era of tucked-in shirts and khakis.

However, this is how it *should* be handled. The Union should just be there to make sure the process isn’t fucked up by the agency.

Are you new to the FAA? Of course the agency will fuck it up. As for your last line...that's exactly why the union is there, and what their role is. I don't know where the narrative started that NATCA makes the selections, but they just sit there and make sure the process isn't fucked up by the agency, exactly as you ask for. Using your example, what if 5 guys want to leave shithole FTW, who gets to go first? All 5 get to go? Whoever has their new facility-to-be ATM reach out first?

We’re at zero movement compared to years past. So yes, NATCA has ruined the transfer process. NCEPT has run its course. It’s time for a new process.

We're at historic all time low staffing levels, yet still on pace to move over 400 in 2023. Without a defined release policy and a quarterly meeting to force the Agency's hand into selections, you think we'd be moving more? Staffing sucks right now. If there were 500+ Possible Losses in the PPT and NCEPT was moving 88, I'd say it's slowing movement, but the issue these days isn't NCEPT, its the amount of facilities that are below the threshold to release.

Is it possible to not have your name on the list and have gotten picked up? We are writing a schedule for next year and was asked what date I was leaving. Not sure what was going on. OM was the one that told them and OM said because we had someone declining their ERR release in March that I was able to leave. ATM and FacRep both out today but VP said I was only one picked up. I didn’t have a hardship request in or anything. Maybe it’s some sick joke. We will see if I get my TOL next week. Just wondering if this has happened to anyone else.

Reach out to your NCEPT rep. I've heard stories of this happening before where the Agency made some dumb screwup.

 

[twn]

We're at historic all time low staffing levels, yet still on pace to move over 400 in 2023. Without a defined release policy and a quarterly meeting to force the Agency's hand into selections, you think we'd be moving more? Staffing sucks right now. If there were 500+ Possible Losses in the PPT and NCEPT was moving 88, I'd say it's slowing movement, but the issue these days isn't NCEPT, its the amount of facilities that are below the threshold to release.

So you're happy with 4% of the workforce moving per year?

 

[CoffeeIV]

So you're happy with 4% of the workforce moving per year?

9.2% of the people that had ERRs in got selected for just this panel. Where you're getting this made up "4%" from I'd like to know.

Lets look at some facts: 88 people got selected. Only 952 had ERRs filed. People want to bitch and moan "whats the point of filing if we cant release" and then wonder why nothing changes. Do you think if there were 5,000 people with ERRs filed but only 88 getting selected that it wouldn't become a bigger talking point? That would be less than 2% of the eligible people getting selected. But most of you are lazy and just want to whine than actually do anything meaningful. Plus the fact this is just an echo chamber for people unhappy with NCEPT thinking they deserve this and that and completely ignore any logic.

 

[twn]

9.2% of the people that had ERRs in got selected for just this panel. Where you're getting this made up "4%" from I'd like to know.

Lets look at some facts: 88 people got selected. Only 952 had ERRs filed. People want to bitch and moan "whats the point of filing if we cant release" and then wonder why nothing changes. Do you think if there were 5,000 people with ERRs filed but only 88 getting selected that it wouldn't become a bigger talking point? That would be less than 2% of the eligible people getting selected. But most of you are lazy and just want to whine than actually do anything meaningful. Plus the fact this is just an echo chamber for people unhappy with NCEPT thinking they deserve this and that and completely ignore any logic.

400 people moved this year divided by 10000 controllers.

 

[CoffeeIV]

400 people moved this year divided by 10000 controllers.

10000 don't have ERRs in only 952 did. Therefore it's a made up number.


Edit: Also there were 10,751 CPCs listed for August if you want to get technical. 2,619 trainees (plenty of CPC-ITs but I dont have the specifics for that).

 

[Move78]

Yeah because supes don't have NATCA at the table and they can't move around at all huh?

Oh wait that's completely fucking wrong isn't it...

It’s apples and oranges though because supes are expendable. If thanos poofed all the supes tomorrow the pilots wouldn’t even notice. The BU is never gonna be able to compete with that kind of freedom. The NAS can’t function without the controllers.

10000 don't have ERRs in only 952 did. Therefore it's a made up number.


Edit: Also there were 10,751 CPCs listed for August if you want to get technical. 2,619 trainees (plenty of CPC-ITs but I dont have the specifics for that).

CPCITs are in the hidden columns to the right

 

[Bandit117]

10000 don't have ERRs in only 952 did. Therefore it's a made up number.


Edit: Also there were 10,751 CPCs listed for August if you want to get technical. 2,619 trainees (plenty of CPC-ITs but I dont have the specifics for that).

Is that total ERRs or 952 ERRs from the facilities that could release?

That number, if it’s the total, doesn’t tell the whole story. Many people are at places where they are stuck now, they were stuck before and they will be stuck for the foreseeable future, as a no cat facility. What that means is they don’t bother with ERRs because why file something that will never be looked at.

You can argue that they should file anyways, since it will reflect the demand to leave, but many still won’t out of pragmatism or outright depression

 

[CoffeeIV]

Is that total ERRs or 952 ERRs from the facilities that could release?

That number, if it’s the total, doesn’t tell the whole story. Many people are at places where they are stuck now, they were stuck before and they will be stuck for the foreseeable future, as a no cat facility. What that means is they don’t bother with ERRs because why file something that will never be looked at.

You can argue that they should file anyways, since it will reflect the demand to leave, but many still won’t out of pragmatism or outright depression

957 = Employees with ERRs (I put 952 for some reason initially).

Those 957 employees have 2,843 ERRs on file. Of those ERRs, only 725 were releasable. So about 3 ERRs are on file per employee looking to transfer. 88 people were selected so theoretically there could be 264 less ERRs in the system.

Either way, you can take the data and spin it one way or the other. I view 9.2% of the people trying to move getting selected in a single bid pretty good especially for a "low" amount. I wish I could find the "ERR Demand" file for previous months/quarters to compare more data.

I'm also a big believer in "perception is everything". If more people want to transfer, they should be putting in their paperwork regardless if their facility can release or not. It raises more awareness if 1-2% of the requests are getting approved a quarter compared to almost 10% of the requests.

 

[doodii]

I love NATCA apologists.

 

[Bandit117]

957 = Employees with ERRs (I put 952 for some reason initially).

Those 957 employees have 2,843 ERRs on file. Of those ERRs, only 725 were releasable. So about 3 ERRs are on file per employee looking to transfer. 88 people were selected so theoretically there could be 264 less ERRs in the system.

Either way, you can take the data and spin it one way or the other. I view 9.2% of the people trying to move getting selected in a single bid pretty good especially for a "low" amount. I wish I could find the "ERR Demand" file for previous months/quarters to compare more data.

It’s still a valid question if how many employees want to move but don’t file because they know it won’t happen and so they don’t bother. Look at the Z’s, most have never let one go ever. You think people don’t want to leave ZNY, ZOA, ZME, ZLA, ZTL, ZJX, etc? That’s a pool of thousands of people whose desires are not reflected in outbound paperwork

 

[Mike Kilo]

It’s still a valid question if how many employees want to move but don’t file because they know it won’t happen and so they don’t bother. Look at the Z’s, most have never let one go ever. You think people don’t want to leave ZNY, ZOA, ZME, ZLA, ZTL, ZJX, etc? That’s a pool of thousands of people whose desires are not reflected in outbound paperwork

If you won’t put in the 10 minutes of time to file paperwork then you don’t deserve to be counted in the pool of people wanting to leave. They don’t even have to be signed by a rating official anymore.

 

[CoffeeIV]

It’s still a valid question if how many employees want to move but don’t file because they know it won’t happen and so they don’t bother. Look at the Z’s, many have never let one go ever. You think people don’t want to leave ZNY, ZOA, ZME, ZTL, ZJX, etc? That’s a pool of thousands of people whose desires are not reflected in outbound paperwork

A thousand people who don't voice their concerns with a paper trail. Complaining at work, complaining on the forums, etc means little. As much money as NATCA National gets paid, they still can't read minds. They may just assume that people want to be at those places since no one is trying to leave.

ZOA: 1 employee with ERRs on file.
ZNY: 0
ZME: 11
ZTL: 5
ZJX: 3
ZDC: 8
ZMP: 18
ZLC: 15
ZKC: 13
ZHU: 16
ZDV: 18

Sorry I just have little sympathy for anyone at ZOA, ZNY, ZJX complaining about transferring when they're too lazy to put the paperwork in. ZNY is probably the same as N90, they love to bitch and scream "woe is me" but none of them actually want to go. Plenty of centers seem to be putting theirs in. At my last facility, if you had any desire to get the fuck out you put the paperwork in the day you certified. My trainers offered to help me because they did the same.

 

[ATC123]

So you're happy with 4% of the workforce moving per year?

It's not a matter of happy/unhappy, to me. It's realistic expectations. Given the current staffing levels, and where they are relative to the NRP release thresholds....

It seems you wanted many more selections this panel? How many would suffice...250? So let's re-frame this discussion to where would those selections come from? Lower the NRP (even though everyone screams bloody murder whenever the agency deviates below it)? How do you pick which facilities you select lower from? Some Bumfuck ATCT gets to go down to 75% so those level 5 suckers can *REALLY* feel the pain?

10000 don't have ERRs in only 952 did. Therefore it's a made up number.


Edit: Also there were 10,751 CPCs listed for August if you want to get technical. 2,619 trainees (plenty of CPC-ITs but I dont have the specifics for that).

This. As I posted early, you can't force people to move. Go based off of who has ERRs (showing active desire to move) vs assuming every CPC in the NAS wants to move.

 

[Bandit117]

If you won’t put in the 10 minutes of time to file paperwork then you don’t deserve to be counted in the pool of people wanting to leave. They don’t even have to be signed by a rating official anymore.

Why bother when you’re at dozens on dozens of CPCs down? It’s like writing a Christmas list when your dad lost his job

A thousand people who don't voice their concerns with a paper trail. Complaining at work, complaining on the forums, etc means little. As much money as NATCA National gets paid, they still can't read minds. They may just assume that people want to be at those places since no one is trying to leave.

ZOA: 1 employee with ERRs on file.
ZNY: 0
ZME: 11
ZTL: 5
ZJX: 3
ZDC: 8
ZMP: 18
ZLC: 15
ZKC: 13
ZHU: 16
ZDV: 18

Sorry I just have little sympathy for anyone at ZOA, ZNY, ZJX complaining about transferring when they're too lazy to put the paperwork in. ZNY is probably the same as N90, they love to bitch and scream "woe is me" but none of them actually want to go. Plenty of centers seem to be putting theirs in. At my last facility, if you had any desire to get the fuck out you put the paperwork in the day you certified. My trainers offered to help me because they did the same.

ZNYs only leave on hardship, washout, supe bid, A124, or death. They are almost 100 bodies below releasing anyone IIRC. It’s fatalism you can’t understand unless you’ve been stuck

 

[CoffeeIV]

ZNYs only leave on hardship, washout, supe bid, A124, or death. They are almost 100 bodies below releasing anyone IIRC. It’s fatalism you can’t understand unless you’ve been stuck

If you cant be bothered to put the paperwork in, then be stuck. Perception is everything. 0 ERRs on file means the CPCs want to be there. That's like saying, "I already know my candidate is going to lose, why vote?"

Loser mentality.

 

[Bandit117]

If you cant be bothered to put the paperwork in, then be stuck. Perception is everything. 0 ERRs on file means the CPCs want to be there. That's like saying, "I already know my candidate is going to lose, why vote?"

Loser mentality.

And yet it’s true. You can name call, but it’s true. Taking the time to do err paperwork when you’re already on 6 day weeks with no hope of ever getting to the national average is just taking away what little free time you have left. Have you ever talked to someone stuck at ZNY?

What good is paperwork when you’re 100 CPCs down?

 

[BDUB]

Maybe the FAA and NATCA could collaborate and come up with an electronic way to file paperwork for ERR’s. How tf are we in 2023 and I have to email or fax over applications where half the stuff in them isn’t even needed or required anymore lol. NATCA has a database with all of our names just let us click a few boxes of where we dream of going and call it a day…..I suppose the harder you make the process the less likely people are to do it though

 

[doodii]

Why would you put in ERR paperwork if you’re at a facility that is historically below release % and has ZERO hope of reaching said %? It’s called hopelessness and it’s real. So, you settle and become bitter. Honestly, it makes sense.

Maybe the FAA and NATCA could collaborate and come up with an electronic way to file paperwork for ERR’s. How tf are we in 2023 and I have to email or fax over applications where half the stuff in them isn’t even needed or required anymore lol. NATCA has a database with all of our names just let us click a few boxes of where we dream of going and call it a day…..I suppose the harder you make the process the less likely people are to do it though

This is very true and a conspiracy that actually has some roots in my opinion. Lol at faxes. Like wtf?

 

[twn]

10000 don't have ERRs in only 952 did. Therefore it's a made up number.


Edit: Also there were 10,751 CPCs listed for August if you want to get technical. 2,619 trainees (plenty of CPC-ITs but I dont have the specifics for that).

You're a tool. Ever hear of rounding