February (Q2) 2022

[Move78]

Bruh they don’t even let trainees that haven’t done anything yet swap on their own dime

This would make certification a punishment. They’re not letting trainees swap before CPCs

 

[32andBelow]

This would make certification a punishment. They’re not letting trainees swap before CPCs

That’s why this is never going to get fixed. Cus they need to punish other people cus they got punished already

 

[Bama]

I like the idea behind Round 2. It gives controllers a chance that only want to go to a 8 or 9.

 

[Move78]

Is it not? Has NATCA addressed any of the discontent with the process? Or made movements more free? Or has it become more and more restrictive and nebulous

NATCA leadership wants more people to move. The exact opposite of what you said. And the Agency moves and doesn’t move people. No one from NATCA has ever selected anyone for an ERR under NCEPT.

That’s why this is never going to get fixed. Cus they need to punish other people cus they got punished already

The majority of the membership disagrees with you.

The crazy part is we can't train anyone unless they have a waiver because social distancing or whatever. But it's cool to shoot the poop with all 5 of them in the break room not social distancing. What a joke.

The training situation is a full blown catastrophe

 

[32andBelow]

The majority of the membership disagrees with you.

Ok but there’s no logical reason for it. Trainees are trainees a CPC is never gonna get that trainee slot

 

[ZO]

So they made it fair by selecting no one. They keep raising the requirements to release as staffing improves. If your in a medium to lightly well staffed center you can never release and can never pick up. It’s psychotic

No they made it fair by not crippling low staffed facilities who had members that could "network better". There was no accountability in the ERR system.

If the facility can spare them and not go below national average, which is literally what facilities are supposed to staff to, then it shouldn’t be detrimental to the NAS. Numbers game, right? The magic number is national average.



Well, you mostly heard wrong. You didn’t see JNU to ATL often/at all because networking was important, and selections cared about where you certified before. They wanted to see career progression, not expecting to jump to a 12 from a 5 because “numbers.” The most important thing was what I mentioned before: no constantly changing numbers needed to release, if you applied and were selected, you were released, period. The only variable factor was how long your released date was.

Yes, some facilities were showing evidence of a good old boys network, and NCEPT sought to change that by removing that in the form of guaranteed releases despite certified facility level if you met release criteria. It was just too far of a swing of the pendulum in the other direction, and instead of gradually working towards the middle, each new rule swings the pendulum further to the other side.



You can’t say it’s a numbers game when the numbers needed to transfer change each panel, and they reserve the right to deny transfers regardless of numbers “dynamically.”



Again, numbers game, national average being the target number. You can’t play it both ways.



Mandatory releases regardless of staffing level, even if they are back to 3 year release dates. Black hole facilities are an embarrassment.




A rare case when 32 and I agree. Something to pay attention to.

Thanks for the well thought out and detailed response. It's appreciated.

I don't have the knowledge/numbers to address many of your points.

I still fully believe a numbers based approach is the answer as opposed to the who you know approach of the past.

The ultimate goal of the agency and the union is to have every facility staffed at 100%. That will never happen, but as we approach higher national averages, releases will be much easier to come by, as a national average becomes somewhat useless if every facility has healthy staffing. And those release restrictions loosen.

 

[Mike Kilo]

If the facility can spare them and not go below national average, which is literally what facilities are supposed to staff to, then it shouldn’t be detrimental to the NAS. Numbers game, right? The magic number is national average.



Well, you mostly heard wrong. You didn’t see JNU to ATL often/at all because networking was important, and selections cared about where you certified before. They wanted to see career progression, not expecting to jump to a 12 from a 5 because “numbers.” The most important thing was what I mentioned before: no constantly changing numbers needed to release, if you applied and were selected, you were released, period. The only variable factor was how long your released date was.

Yes, some facilities were showing evidence of a good old boys network, and NCEPT sought to change that by removing that in the form of guaranteed releases despite certified facility level if you met release criteria. It was just too far of a swing of the pendulum in the other direction, and instead of gradually working towards the middle, each new rule swings the pendulum further to the other side.



You can’t say it’s a numbers game when the numbers needed to transfer change each panel, and they reserve the right to deny transfers regardless of numbers “dynamically.”



Again, numbers game, national average being the target number. You can’t play it both ways.



Mandatory releases regardless of staffing level, even if they are back to 3 year release dates. Black hole facilities are an embarrassment.




A rare case when 32 and I agree. Something to pay attention to.

Some decent points but I was also around for type old system and there were plenty of low level people getting coveted placements due to knowing someone or being related (they also direct hired to those places which isn’t right either imo). There were also many times when a manager would pass on someone because of the black hole release date. They would absolutely get info about release dates before selections.

I like NCEPT but it needs to be tweaked better as we go imo including the National release policy. Two waves of movement starting with 9 and above first would help.

 

[X-Ray Lima]

At some point they would have to choose between closing facilities or forcing people there because no one wants to go to many facilities.

So then they would be in the same position as they are now

All they have to do is pay more at hard to staff facilities, problem solved. Lets start by redistributing CIP pay. I guarantee you if they start paying 30-50% CIP at places like ROW and ASE, people will be lining up to stay there their entire career.

 

[Electricfence]

All they have to do is pay more at hard to staff facilities, problem solved. Lets start by redistributing CIP pay. I guarantee you if they start paying 30-50% CIP at places like ROW and ASE, people will be lining up to stay there their entire career.

They would contract those facilities before that ever happens. And Natca can’t get on board with that because a bunch of bitches actually working traffic would say it’s not fair.

 

[BDUB]

I understand the knowing someone possiblity with the old system would suck but that sounds a hell of a lot better than training people just to watch them bud the entire NAS on the next NCEPT after certification while you’re stuck trying to go to a specific area in the country. At least with the sounds of the old way you had a wait period but it was settled you’d get to go where you wanted eventually. What more could you ask for?

Also if supervisor positions can all go through USAJOBS why should controller transfers be any different?

 

[Dynamic_Decisions]

This guy gets it

You know what this guy doesn't get.....picked up during NCEPT

 

[Oscar Golf]

I like the idea behind Round 2. It gives controllers a chance that only want to go to a 8 or 9.

They made the releasing way too high for Round 2 though compared to the past

 

[Oscar Golf]

So they made it fair by selecting no one. They keep raising the requirements to release as staffing improves. If your in a medium to lightly well staffed center you can never release and can never pick up. It’s psychotic

Like how did SCT not select a single person this NCEPT when they checked every requirement

 

[Homsar]

This dude NCEPTs.

Way too much.

Thanks for the well thought out and detailed response. It's appreciated.

I don't have the knowledge/numbers to address many of your points.

I still fully believe a numbers based approach is the answer as opposed to the who you know approach of the past.

I think a balance between the two is necessary. Excellent staffing to move up a significant number of levels, but no stopping people from moving up one-two levels, or down levels, just give them long release dates.

The ultimate goal of the agency and the union is to have every facility staffed at 100%. That will never happen, but as we approach higher national averages, releases will be much easier to come by, as a national average becomes somewhat useless if every facility has healthy staffing. And those release restrictions loosen.

“Healthy staffing” isn’t numbers on a spreadsheet, it’s operational coverage. My facility was at 95% current to target for most of last year but we were on 6 day work weeks from May-November due to training holds, medical issues, etc. Not to mention any NCEPT releases were out of the question due to CPC numbers being under 85%.

Some decent points but I was also around for type old system and there were plenty of low level people getting coveted placements due to knowing someone or being related (they also direct hired to those places which isn’t right either imo). There were also many times when a manager would pass on someone because of the black hole release date. They would absolutely get info about release dates before selections.

Oh, of course. Reform was needed, and getting a 2 year release date for FAT and then getting picked up at SEA during the last 6 months of your wait had to stop. It was just a pendulum swing too far.

I like NCEPT but it needs to be tweaked better as we go imo including the National release policy. Two waves of movement starting with 9 and above first would help.

That works, but the national release policy needs to be changed to a simple sentence of “Releases shall be granted in the event of a selection, regardless of current facility staffing, and shall occur no greater than 3 years from date of selection, but may be shortened by an ATM if staffing allows.” That should be all we need.

 

[Termine]

I’d love to see the overall national average per ppt since they started publishing them. Has it gone up down? Gone in waves?

The things I do for you people. Honestly MJ needs to give me a raise.

 

[Move78]

“Healthy staffing” isn’t numbers on a spreadsheet, it’s operational coverage. My facility was at 95% current to target for most of last year but we were on 6 day work weeks from May-November due to training holds, medical issues, etc. Not to mention any NCEPT releases were out of the question due to CPC numbers being under 85%

I don’t get this it seems like you’re saying you were 95 and 85 at the same time. Current to target is “cpc numbers”

 

[MJ]

The things I do for you people. Honestly MJ needs to give me a raise.

I'll double your salary, effective immediately.

 

[Spaceforce]

The things I do for you people. Honestly MJ needs to give me a raise.

Anyone know what the spike in 2017 was? Was that the N90 bid?

Also you Termine, you should change your initials to SS, superstar.

 

[Homsar]

I don’t get this it seems like you’re saying you were 95 and 85 at the same time. Current to target is “cpc numbers”

I worded that poorly, I didn’t have the PPT up to see the exact names of the columns. I meant we were under 85% current CPC to target, but 95% projected to target. It’s the awful sweet spot created by the national release policy and NCEPT that doesn’t let anyone go but doesn’t let us pick up anyone either, at least under the current NCEPT rules.

 

[FightingIrish2012]

“under the current NCEPT rules” lol. The rules don’t matter man, it’s as worthless as the Canadian constitution. That’s why I feel bad when I see people analyzing release potentials down to the hundredth of a percentage point. The panel gives no fucks about the clear cut established rules when making selections, they don’t even know what the meaning of advanced analytics is.