How is Training Initiative going in your building?

DankVectorz

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N90 New York Tracon
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I’m only 35 miles away jus sayin
 
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PushingTin

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Oh shut up. At least reference the person you’re trying to call out on the sly you arrogant clown. I’ve been to several facilities, seen good and bad prior experience, good and bad CTI, good and bad OTS. Pot meet kettle coming from you who spouts all kinds of inane arrogant bullshit and acts like gods gift to ATC.

(Clutching my pearls. My my, such language!)

It is understandable that you may not be able to relate. MJ and many others do though.
 
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Robert_Boucher

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no they don't. some are absolute jerks about the OT but no they don't bonuses based on that. and same applies to the training initiative. Also, the FACREP is supposed to be involved in this training initiative and have to submit a weekly report collaboratively with the ATM. so if the FACREP is allowing management to cram wasted hours on a trainees then they are just as complicit as the bad manager screwing over the trainees and trainers.
Maybe it's a regional thing, I was told by someone in management that some of their performance goals were based of things like OT usage. If they kept it below a certain number or percentage they got a bonus.
 
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CF

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Maybe it's a regional thing, I was told by someone in management that some of their performance goals were based of things like OT usage. If they kept it below a certain number or percentage they got a bonus.
Sounds like it's not directly tied to getting a bonus but they won't get the performance review required to bonus if they don't hit it.
 

Ad1234

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Sounds like it's not directly tied to getting a bonus but they won't get the performance review required to bonus if they don't hit it.

Alpha_bravo2 all managers get a bonus unless they fall in the performance review category “does not meet expectations” which hardly anyone does or else they wouldn’t be allowed to remain a manager The bonus itself is tied to their performance review that’s basically the same as our initial/mid point/ close out discussion we should all be given by our supes. They just get bonuses, we don’t. We are likely to get raises, they won’t so there is that. And what you heard from that supe probably isn’t the whole picture, the front lines don’t know percentages or figures or amounts of the OT budget unless specifically told how much they have to spend, but then they would have to know off hand how much everyone makes, that’s extremely unlikely. They were probably told something along the lines of be more reasonable with overtime calls, they still have to meet staffing guidelines and they still should be following mous, bws etc and if they aren’t then the Facrep isnt doing their job and filing grievances with their OT call practices. If supes do a better job with calling in blanket overtime then they made better decisions based on their expectations. It’s not just don’t call ot regardless, screw the traffic or the contract. I’m not surprised if it doesn’t happen from time to time but again then the union isn’t holding them accountable. Same with the training initiative If they are being told the 12-18 is absolutely mandatory that’s just wrong. If there is no reason not to get the hours then yes it should be mandatory. But how would they explain a trainee being in leave?so it’s not that black and white and the union is required to be involved. Again if not thats why managers are allowed to blanket dictate the hours.
 

AB19

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As an Eagle Alumni myself I'm embarrassed at the attitudes of some of the CTI kids there. It's truly incredible to me and I don't know if the program itself is to blame or the student themselves, but it is definitely a black eye on a university I loved
FSCJ REPRESENT
 

fknlo

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Maybe it's a regional thing, I was told by someone in management that some of their performance goals were based of things like OT usage. If they kept it below a certain number or percentage they got a bonus.

More likely a facility thing. OT is unavoidable at what I'm assuming is most centers now, they're not going to punish FLM's for that. People on the no list in my old area at my previous facility hit 200+ hours this year. A huge part of that is to accomplish training. They were aiming for 4 hours a day well before the current initiative came out though. I worked more OT this year than I had my entire career combined and I was nowhere near what they were. That probably changes this year since they've bumped our staffing numbers up.
 

J58Bear

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I notice a huge wave of especially these "direct hires" noobs, openly saying things like "I was at Nellis, this place will be easy for me". "I was the go to controller in local at my Air Force Base, we used to have 10+ in the pattern everyday". "I had a center rating working at _____, so this won't be hard".

They have a very entitled attitude and then plug in and suck. And you're like wow, how did this person even ever allegedly talk to aircraft anywhere? They're literally trying hard to kill people while telling you how gold they are in their 3rd month in the agency. Also about where their next* facility will be. Its almost a shocking level of arrogance, ignorance, and untactfulness. It makes me feel contempt for them and people hate them. So its understandable how a theoretically "less busy" facility could still wash out a lot of people. No one wants to put up w that shit. Send humble quiet hard working trainees who get in the books and are open to learning and don't think they be already arrived!
I mean the examples of prior .mil controllers you describe do sound arrogant, but I think there’s some merit to the reason behind why some of them do kinda suck coming into the FAA side.

Military traffic can be regarded in ways as vastly different than civil. When I was in we had things like reduced same runway separation for base assigned jets that let us run same types doing the same option landing component as close as 3000 & airborne. Makes for a very versatile and high capacity pattern operation. Another example would be channelized frequencies or local procedures and restrictions that all pilots and controllers are briefed and sign letters on.

I would wager that there are a good amount of military airports out there that are considered somewhat busy and complex with in the DoD but are easy compared even to a lot of lower level FAA facs. Military ATC obviously adheres to the 7110 but everything is way more dumbed down and canned.

Pretty much all military pilots are highly trained, fly the same and have tons of hours in the seat. Working civil GA you have people with all kinds of flying backgrounds that hop in their experimental bi-plane with 2 reciprocating props and a turbojet engine in the middle (you get where I’m going with this) and have to sequence with commercial jets.

I’m really not trying to make excuses for military controllers coming into the agency, but I also don’t think a lot of FAA controllers realize just how different working military traffic is. There’s not NEAR as much liability with .mil controllers working .mil planes also as there is with an airline trying to sue the FAAs nuts off because someone slid off the runway and the RCC codes weren’t broadcasted on the ATIS.
 

jorgeluis161

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FAA
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PIE St. Petersburg Tower
no they don't. some are absolute jerks about the OT but no they don't bonuses based on that. and same applies to the training initiative. Also, the FACREP is supposed to be involved in this training initiative and have to submit a weekly report collaboratively with the ATM. so if the FACREP is allowing management to cram wasted hours on a trainees then they are just as complicit as the bad manager screwing over the trainees and trainers.

At my facility lately management are forcing trainees to make up hours if they take leave....

Example: trainee took SL one day... The rest of the week they need to train 30 more mins above the goal to make up for the hours missed that day...

Second example... Trainee took an annual leave day that he bid in round 3. They made him make up the time he took to reach the goal (mandate) FacRep here... Did nothing.
 

32andBelow

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At my facility lately management are forcing trainees to make up hours if they take leave....

Example: trainee took SL one day... The rest of the week they need to train 30 more mins above the goal to make up for the hours missed that day...

Second example... Trainee took an annual leave day that he bid in round 3. They made him make up the time he took to reach the goal (mandate) FacRep here... Did nothing.
This is really good tho. I’m glad they are finally taking training seriously. No reason you can’t train 5 hours a day
 

jorgeluis161

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FAA
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PIE St. Petersburg Tower
This is really good tho. I’m glad they are finally taking training seriously. No reason you can’t train 5 hours a day
Let me add....

That if the time is good training that's great... But if we are IFR rain storms and they talk to 1 plane for an entire hour... It's shit training and a waste of time... We have impediments for a reason and trainees shouldn't be penalized for taking leave.
 

Ad1234

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At my facility lately management are forcing trainees to make up hours if they take leave....

Example: trainee took SL one day... The rest of the week they need to train 30 more mins above the goal to make up for the hours missed that day...

Second example... Trainee took an annual leave day that he bid in round 3. They made him make up the time he took to reach the goal (mandate) FacRep here... Did nothing.
Where is your Natca training rep to look at what the atm submits for their weekly report on why a trainee didn’t get their hours? There is no reason this should be happening.

If they aren’t involved that’s the place to start. The .4 gave them the power to be an equal partner of the training administrator in the building.
 

Phillytroll69

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JNU Juneau Tower
I think we can agree the one size fits all is not the best answer-but if we're waiting for busier traffic or I just want to see this, they should be payed a reasonable rate.

Another argument against 'merit' based raises. As culture and training times are wildly different, why would we wait to certify someone until summer? Safety

Is it then fair that someone at a hub with no pattern work is certified in six months and able to begin contributing more to tsp, pay into real estate, etc.

Clearly there is no way to make a blanket statement about required training when some places are dead for six months and booming for six.

I think the initiative is great for places with more uniform traffic flow BUT if they certify or fail to obtain recommendation on slow stuff, then have a trb etc, they might not even see the busy stuff

At our facility there are some lulls when we train I just take breaks
 

rugbydog11

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543
We have 3 in the radar right now at a 7 up down. The NTI causes such a detriment to trainees on some days because "we need to get 3 hours" so the person with 8 hours so far gets thrown in on the busiest shit show of traffic and the one who needs to get some more bus experience trains at 7 am with no planes. Or an unnecessary split of the sectors to get training accomplished at the same time where it becomes non effective for both at the same time.
 

32andBelow

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7,360
We have 3 in the radar right now at a 7 up down. The NTI causes such a detriment to trainees on some days because "we need to get 3 hours" so the person with 8 hours so far gets thrown in on the busiest shit show of traffic and the one who needs to get some more bus experience trains at 7 am with no planes. Or an unnecessary split of the sectors to get training accomplished at the same time where it becomes non effective for both at the same time.
Why aren’t they just on different crews?
 

rugbydog11

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Sounds like a single facility problem. Then the FAA makes the NTI cus single facilités can’t figure out how to train anyone
They aren't on the same crew, but when you have 3+, they overlap during shifts. One bid sun/Mon. One bid sat sun/ they placed the third I think Thurs Fri... Either way, the shifts are mismanaged in the sake of the NTI. We had a 90+ success rate with way way way less hours in the same or less time prior. Because we could train them based on where they were and what traffic they needed to see.
 

jorgeluis161

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FAA
Messages
26
Facility
PIE St. Petersburg Tower
Where is your Natca training rep to look at what the atm submits for their weekly report on why a trainee didn’t get their hours? There is no reason this should be happening.

If they aren’t involved that’s the place to start. The .4 gave them the power to be an equal partner of the training administrator in the building.
It's starts with the local FacRep and I've said stuff over and over again but 🤷‍♂️
 
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