*Insert Clickbait Thread Title Name Regarding Unions Here*

[Mike Kilo]

That's a weird way to say "weren't as highly qualified as others". We can debate whether the ATSA adequately measures controller ability, but the person who scores highest on the ATSA will get a TOL 100% of the time. If you take the test and don't get a TOL it's because you didn't score high enough - there's literally nothing else to it. And why are these people applying OTS in the first place if they're eligible for prior experience bids?



Again, you're comparing PAYING for your own training with BEING PAID (even if it's not a lot on AG pay) to train. Completely different things. You wanna make it comparable? Have trainees work for free all through training, plus make them pay the 20% OJT incentive directly to their trainers every time they plug in, and they don't see a dime from the FAA until they make CPC.

Have to disagree, my brother scored 100 on the atsat and wasn’t hired. Aged out eventually.

 

[32andBelow]

That's a weird way to say "weren't as highly qualified as others". We can debate whether the ATSA adequately measures controller ability, but the person who scores highest on the ATSA will get a TOL 100% of the time. If you take the test and don't get a TOL it's because you didn't score high enough - there's literally nothing else to it. And why are these people applying OTS in the first place if they're eligible for prior experience bids?



Again, you're comparing PAYING for your own training with BEING PAID (even if it's not a lot on AG pay) to train. Completely different things. You wanna make it comparable? Have trainees work for free all through training, plus make them pay the 20% OJT incentive directly to their trainers every time they plug in, and they don't see a dime from the FAA until they make CPC.

Uh no the pilots get paid to train at their airlines. Anyways I’ll give the FAA 80k right now to pay back for my training in exchange for 300k a year.

 

[penaltyvectors]

Have to disagree, my brother scored 100 on the atsat and wasn’t hired. Aged out eventually.

AT-SAT, not ATSA. The hiring process in the past was much different and included several "x-factors" such as race - which is part of why the system now is so regimented. I can't speak to how often situations like your brother's occurred, but today everyone who scores 100 on the ATSA will absolutely be given a TOL.

Uh no the pilots get paid to train at their airlines. Anyways I’ll give the FAA 80k right now to pay back for my training in exchange for 300k a year.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Yes, once they're employed by their airlines the pilots are paid to train, just like we're paid for recurrent training or changing facilities or whatever. We're specifically talking about the requirements that need to be met BEFORE you get your first paycheck from the FAA or an airline. For us, it's a high school diploma and doing well on a 4 hour test. For them, it's several years of zero or very low pay and tens of thousands of dollars in training costs.

And obviously you would, you've already checked out and that'd be a no-brainer - everyone would take that deal. Would you have shelled out the $80k before you knew if you'd be hired, before you had any idea whether you'd have the aptitude for this job, and when you maybe had $5k or less in your bank account? I doubt it.

 

[32andBelow]

AT-SAT, not ATSA. The hiring process in the past was much different and included several "x-factors" such as race - which is part of why the system now is so regimented. I can't speak to how often situations like your brother's occurred, but today everyone who scores 100 on the ATSA will absolutely be given a TOL.



Are you being deliberately obtuse? Yes, once they're employed by their airlines the pilots are paid to train, just like we're paid for recurrent training or changing facilities or whatever. We're specifically talking about the requirements that need to be met BEFORE you get your first paycheck from the FAA or an airline. For us, it's a high school diploma and doing well on a 4 hour test. For them, it's several years of zero or very low pay and tens of thousands of dollars in training costs.

And obviously you would, you've already checked out and that'd be a no-brainer - everyone would take that deal. Would you have shelled out the $80k before you knew if you'd be hired, before you had any idea whether you'd have the aptitude for this job, and when you maybe had $5k or less in your bank account? I doubt it.

Bruh they all get hired as long as they complete the training. And they can retake things they fail. It’s totally different.

That’s my point with hiring from McDonald’s it makes us look bad when it’s time to negotiate?

 

[Bandit117]

It’s absolutely absurd we hire people with high school diplomas only. That’s prolly why half of them don’t make it.

Spirit isn’t bottom tier at all. Spirit is a major airline. You generally don’t start at a major airline. You don’t even know what you are talking about

Delta and other majors don’t require a college degree anymore either, fyi

 

[32andBelow]

Delta and other majors don’t require a college degree anymore either, fyi

Yah but you need a whole lot of certificates and ratings and qualifications. Not “3 years of progressive work experience”

 

[Papacharlie327]

That’s the thing guys and gals. When you don’t require some kind of trade degree or advanced education and you hire off the street from buc ee’s and Wendy’s, your stock goes down. Now everyone thinks any dumb shit can do this job. Your ego tells you you are more important than what the people cutting your checks think.

 

[CoffeeIV]

Spirit isn’t bottom tier at all. Spirit is a major airline. You generally don’t start at a major airline. You don’t even know what you are talking about

Spirit is bottom tier in terms of airlines which is the only thing I've talked about. You've made up some other argument that I never said.

I had even capitalized AIRLINE in the post you replied to. Just proving my point. You're uneducated. You're not special. You will never be payed like an AIRLINE pilot because youre just not that smart despite making it in ATC. Tough pill to swallow for plenty of controllers.

That’s the thing guys and gals. When you don’t require some kind of trade degree or advanced education and you hire off the street from buc ee’s and Wendy’s, your stock goes down. Now everyone thinks any dumb shit can do this job. Your ego tells you you are more important than what the people cutting your checks think.

OTS bids have been a thing forever. Literally 30 years ago people were hired with no degrees off the streets and are now retiring. This isn't new.

 

[32andBelow]

Spirit is bottom tier in terms of airlines which is the only thing I've talked about. You've made up some other argument that I never said.

I had even capitalized AIRLINE in the post you replied to. Just proving my point. You're uneducated. You're not special. You will never be payed like an AIRLINE pilot because youre just not that smart despite making it in ATC. Tough pill to swallow for plenty of controllers.

No it’s not. Not even close. There’s regional airlines like SkyWest, small cargo airlines like empire, small rural airlines flying Cessnas, etc.

Spirit is a mainline airlines that isn’t a bad job at all. It’s in the upper rung

It’s so strange how you simp for airline pilots but think controllers are worthless. Why do you hate yourself so much? It’s ok to say you have a good job that is challenging

 

[CoffeeIV]

It’s so strange how you simp for airline pilots but think controllers are worthless. Why do you hate yourself so much? It’s ok to say you have a good job that is challenging

I love my job. I just think you're incapable of being impartial. We aren't that special. We will never have a contract like airline pilots. Comparing our contract to this UPS contract is insane because ours is already superior in nearly every way because our job is better than UPS. Our job is great and all but we aren't at the top tier like some of you want to believe.

 

[32andBelow]

I love my job. I just think you're incapable of being impartial. We aren't that special. We will never have a contract like airline pilots. Comparing our contract to this UPS contract is insane because ours is already superior in nearly every way because our job is better than UPS. Our job is great and all but we aren't at the top tier like some of you want to believe.

It’s my job and I want my union to negotiate for more money. It’s not complicated.

 

[CoffeeIV]

It’s my job and I want my union to negotiate for more money. It’s not complicated.

Its not complicated. You're not getting it. You're not worth the money you think you are. That's the whole point of my posts.

 

[HighFrequency]

ME WHEN IM A 160 IQ AIRLINE PILOT MAKING THE BIG BUCKS (I AM SMARTER AND MORE VALUABLE THAN EVERY CONTROLLER)

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

That's a weird way to say "weren't as highly qualified as others". We can debate whether the ATSA adequately measures controller ability, but the person who scores highest on the ATSA will get a TOL 100% of the time. If you take the test and don't get a TOL it's because you didn't score high enough - there's literally nothing else to it. And why are these people applying OTS in the first place if they're eligible for prior experience bids?



Again, you're comparing PAYING for your own training with BEING PAID (even if it's not a lot on AG pay) to train. Completely different things. You wanna make it comparable? Have trainees work for free all through training, plus make them pay the 20% OJT incentive directly to their trainers every time they plug in, and they don't see a dime from the FAA until they make CPC.

I never said they qualified for prior experience. I said they were a controller for 5 years but didn’t get a CTO. Come on, we know the same people who got fucked by the system. Qualled on everything in the facility EXCEPT approach and local. Good controllers who got fucked by the system.

To your second point, you know I worked at Perry. It’s pilot mills. Sponsored training, “free” PPL in exchange for paying back their time as a CFI at Wayman, then get pushed out to their next endorsements once they’ve hit their time required. Guys who didn’t speak English two months ago are now somehow training their protege. On top of that, while you’re building your time requirements, you’re getting paid. You’re flying for Cape Air or some other puddle jump company for pennies compared to being a mainliner. That all falls under my “5 years from the street to CPC” timeline. But I’ll tip the scale in your favor just a bit because you’re actually a pilot and thus, I am not.

Its not complicated. You're not getting it. You're not worth the money you think you are. That's the whole point of my posts.

Tell that to the American pilot who refuses to fly into my airport unless the tower is open 😤

 

[32andBelow]

It’s not complicated. You're not getting it. You're not worth the money you think you are. That's the whole point of my posts.

What are we worth? 10 bucks an hour. Just an extremely strange take. Some dipshit makes 200k listening to the DEN while we work lol

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

What are we worth? 10 bucks an hour. Just an extremely strange take. Some dipshit makes 200k listening to the DEN while we work lol

I think we should tell flight schools to fuck off unless they cut us in on their profits. That’s what I think.

 

[Mike Kilo]

I think we should tell flight schools to fuck off unless they cut us in on their profits. That’s what I think.

I agree! Except “us” would be he FAA and we wouldn’t see it 😆

 

[32andBelow]

All natca needs to do is negotiate some bs premiums so our on paper pay scales stay the same. My idea was a 10% premium for every hour you’re on position 🤣.

 

[RomeoTangoRT]

I agree! Except “us” would be he FAA and we wouldn’t see it 😆

pRiVaTiZe… sounds great until that flight school is pumping out 1,000 t&g’s a day and you only have 6 controllers cause it’s cheaper to pay for 60hr weeks than it is to hire more controllers. Big ass bags under your eyes and cotton mouth from saying 10R cleared touch and go ahhhh what the fuck are they doing for 5 hours straight because you don’t have manning to bring another controller in for relief. But smile and wave boyssss smile and wave. Company gets $4 of the $5 per t&g while you get your measly $1 then they pat themselves on the back lookin like Scrooge McDuck.

 

[32andBelow]

Don’t European controllers make more than us? Is it to much to ask to be the highest paid controllers in the world?