July 2020

[Dontbotherme]

I’ve had a strong interest in A80 from 2017. The achievement of making it at a hard TRACON has been a goal of mine after RTF and reaching certification. Perhaps I should resubmit my ERR paperwork (after consulting the wife, of course) and see if that is perhaps my destiny.

Robertb, you still a trainer there?

Yes, I’m still a trainer. If you’re interested in the facility, feel free to ask questions, visit (after this COVID thing of course), etc.

Not gonna call them out by name, but someone on this forum got hired previous experience to F11 and washed on the first scope I think. That's like one of the most desirable facilities in the NAS in my mind. It's not rare for VRA to get offered good mid level places like SAV, CHS, MYR, CVG, and IND. Meanwhile I'd kill to go to any one of those facilities but I'm stuck in atc purgatory indefinitely. I know Rob doesn't want my low level scrub ass to get a chance, but I'd love to get my shot at C90 or A80. I think there are so many immeasurable qualities to air traffic that determine how quickly someone picks it up and whether they're going to be able to meet the standard and unfortunately, someone's resume/experience is not necessarily a good indicator as to whether they're going to make it somewhere.

I never said I don’t want low level people to get a chance, but you SHOULD be required to have higher level radar experience to be selected at a high level approach facility. I don’t think low level transfers should be allowed to go to the A80, C90, D10, etc. simply because they’re available when many others are way more qualified. (Quick example as it happens a lot now: a tower only level 4 CPC vs a level 9 up/down CPC). NCEPT is a numbers game NOT a measure of qualifications. The worst thing is someone, who isn’t qualified or prepared, transfers to their dream facility, spends a year or two in training, wastes numerous training resources, and then washes out. All the stories you’ve probably heard are from washouts you couldn’t meet the standard and don’t want to look themselves in the mirror and see their limiting factor. I’ve yet to see someone here not be given every opportunity to be successful. They’re only limited by their effort and ability. Unfortunately, this isn’t Minority Report and we can “see” who is going to be able to make it or not.

 

[ManBearPig]

The axe of Reno lol. I worked at RNO for 3 years. It's a great place to learn, but it's as basic as ATC gets.
If you can't certify there you really shouldn't be in air traffic in the 1st place. Military ATC must not be creating the experience level it used to. That or people are "doctoring up" their military experience in order to get hired. That's just sad. I served in the early/mid 2000s with guys and worked contract before the FAA with guys who's 1st FAA facilities were places like IAD, PCT, LAS, PHL. They all certified, and it was white book. It seems like these VRAs now days ain't what they used to be.

We got a guy who literally had only work helicopters in a tower. And he said it was rare to have more then 2 at a time.

 

[Mike Kilo]

We got a guy who literally had only work helicopters in a tower. And he said it was rare to have more then 2 at a time.

We had a prior experience hire who emptied the trash in a tower cab.....

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Wait, so you are saying pre exp terminal new hires are going to facilities higher than level 7? Terminal pre exp hires are getting hired at level 8s, 9s and 10s? Is that true?

M98 just picked up a prior experience hire like a month ago

 

[Move78]

They let you bid Previous Exp and skip the academy if you get a CTO at CTI school now. It’s a shit hiring source but they think it’s cheaper. Down the road they will determine whether or not it’s been cost effective and that alone will determine policy.

 

[Acquired Taste]

I never said I don’t want low level people to get a chance, but you SHOULD be required to have higher level radar experience to be selected at a high level approach facility. I don’t think low level transfers should be allowed to go to the A80, C90, D10, etc. simply because they’re available when many others are way more qualified. (Quick example as it happens a lot now: a tower only level 4 CPC vs a level 9 up/down CPC). NCEPT is a numbers game NOT a measure of qualifications. The worst thing is someone, who isn’t qualified or prepared, transfers to their dream facility, spends a year or two in training, wastes numerous training resources, and then washes out. All the stories you’ve probably heard are from washouts you couldn’t meet the standard and don’t want to look themselves in the mirror and see their limiting factor. I’ve yet to see someone here not be given every opportunity to be successful. They’re only limited by their effort and ability. Unfortunately, this isn’t Minority Report and we can “see” who is going to be able to make it or not.

That's definitely very fair. In an ideal world, I never wanted to go straight to one of the big house tracons, but ncept has now made that my goal. I personally don't know anyone that has transferred to a big tracon. Working at a slow up/down, I have things everyday that make me cringe. No one really cares to get better though because it's good enough here and our "standard" is extremely low. I'm obviously biased but I think out of the 15 people in the building right now, only myself and maybe 1 other guy could walk in A80 and certify in a reasonable amount of time. I know it's selfish but I'd definitely be pissed to see someone else at my facility get a shot at A80 (or similar) before me, knowing they likely won't make it. But at the same time, I really want that opportunity for myself, so much so that I'd still come there even though I hate where I'm at and know they'd send me straight back here if I didn't make it.
Also, if there's going to be an ncept level cap, at least make it 4. If I want to go to a 12, whether I go to a level 8 or 9 before is most likely pretty negligible. The only thing a 3 level cap would do is make me certify in 2 places beforehand instead of 1... i.e. 5 to 8 to 11 to 12 instead of 5 to 9 to 12.

 

[Ad1234]

M98 just picked up a prior experience hire like a month ago

they also picked up someone from fcm. They are probably as busy as the helos the prev exp was working. Let’s see who is better and watch they both wash.

 

[Bandit117]

We got a guy who literally had only work helicopters in a tower. And he said it was rare to have more then 2 at a time.

We had one with a CD cert and a PAR “rating”. In the eyes of the FAA that made him a radar experience precious experience. He never held a cert on a real control position

 

[FightingIrish2012]

We had one with a CD cert and a PAR “rating”. In the eyes of the FAA that made him a radar experience precious experience. He never held a cert on a real control position

If that’s all he had what do people like that do in the military for 4-6 years? Something else or can you get certs like that and stay in air traffic the whole time?

 

[AlmostEligible]

Wow. 1, I didn't know so many previous experience were getting hired at mid level facilities. 2, I didn't know previous experience hires had become so terrible. 3, this is undermining the NCEPT more then I was aware of. Learn something new everyday. Thanks for the info everyone.

 

[Morgan_Freeman_But_Not]

It also depends on the timing & experience of the previous experience new hire. Some get lists with nothing above a 7. Some get a few 8’s and 9’s. I’ve seen it go both ways.

 

[CF]

they also picked up someone from fcm. They are probably as busy as the helos the prev exp was working. Let’s see who is better and watch they both wash.

First ORD now M98. Should I transfer there so I can move up?

 

[Dontbotherme]

That's definitely very fair. In an ideal world, I never wanted to go straight to one of the big house tracons, but ncept has now made that my goal. I personally don't know anyone that has transferred to a big tracon. Working at a slow up/down, I have things everyday that make me cringe. No one really cares to get better though because it's good enough here and our "standard" is extremely low. I'm obviously biased but I think out of the 15 people in the building right now, only myself and maybe 1 other guy could walk in A80 and certify in a reasonable amount of time. I know it's selfish but I'd definitely be pissed to see someone else at my facility get a shot at A80 (or similar) before me, knowing they likely won't make it. But at the same time, I really want that opportunity for myself, so much so that I'd still come there even though I hate where I'm at and know they'd send me straight back here if I didn't make it.
Also, if there's going to be an ncept level cap, at least make it 4. If I want to go to a 12, whether I go to a level 8 or 9 before is most likely pretty negligible. The only thing a 3 level cap would do is make me certify in 2 places beforehand instead of 1... i.e. 5 to 8 to 11 to 12 instead of 5 to 9 to 12.

That’s why the “idea” of a screen was fantastic. However, the reality is that they only brought people in to “be screened” based on their ERR paperwork points. Out of the 36 people here screened, ONE certified. If you had talent, but not enough points to even be screened, you were screwed. If they bring back a screen, they need to screen everyone NOT just the most senior. Even your 2/15 (13%) while hard to understand how accurate it might or not might not be, is probably pretty damn close to what the likely outcome would be if your entire facility transferred to A80 or C90 tomorrow.

I’m 100% in favor of a four level cap. That way, ONE potential move can have you go from the lowest level to a mid level then ONE move to a high level. I also want to see those, at the high level facilities, save pay and be allowed to move down (say after 15 years CPC) to train the next generation to move up. Center is a little more complicated, but you could do something similar or retain them, at the same pay, and let them become instructors either permanently or as part of their workweek.

 

[CF]

That’s why the “idea” of a screen was fantastic. However, the reality is that they only brought people in to “be screened” based on their ERR paperwork points. Out of the 36 people here screened, ONE certified. If you had talent, but not enough points to even be screened, you were screwed. If they bring back a screen, they need to screen everyone NOT just the most senior. Even your 2/15 (13%) while hard to understand how accurate it might or not might not be, is probably pretty damn close to what the likely outcome would be if your entire facility transferred to A80 or C90 tomorrow.

I’m 100% in favor of a four level cap. That way, ONE potential move can have you go from the lowest level to a mid level then ONE move to a high level. I also want to see those, at the high level facilities, save pay and be allowed to move down (say after 15 years CPC) to train the next generation to move up. Center is a little more complicated, but you could do something similar or retain them, at the same pay, and let them become instructors either permanently or as part of their workweek.

4 level cap also because are you honestly gonna tell someone that works Deer Valley or Centennial that they can’t give Denver a try?

 

[COWTOWN]

Yet you wanna cap lower levels for NCEPT, stop sending trash downstream.

I mean as a great example, of the last 10 to come through RNO 6 have washed and 1 is still in training. 3 have certified.

Of the 6 to wash 3 were CTI and 3 were PrevExp (2 NEST).

End the NEST, end the Previous Experience hires. You'll probably get higher quality controllers that in turn try to go higher, because let's face it 12's are a joke too if an OTS can do them.

I wouldn't go that far to end previous exp, I and many other did just fine at my first faa facility and i'm sure all joking aside I would have made it at RNO, the hardest 5 in the NAS. If I went there with no previous exp and had no clue how to mix carriers/heavies and GA's, it definitely would have been a lot more difficult transition. Going through the mil track does not automatically make you unteachable or whatever experience you've had with your 'bad batch'. I do think washing people from 6/7 up/downs to 5/6 towers makes no sense for the most part. Also, with my almost daily headache from the shit show of 12 traffic being a joke, did we just go full circle? What is not considered a joke facility to you?

 

[COWTOWN]

4 level cap also because are you honestly gonna tell someone that works Deer Valley or Centennial that they can’t give Denver a try?

Those are level 9/8 facilities, you can go to any level under the 4 level cap idea.

 

[Shikaka]

I wouldn't go that far to end previous exp, I and many other did just fine at my first faa facility and i'm sure all joking aside I would have made it at RNO, the hardest 5 in the NAS. If I went there with no previous exp and had no clue how to mix carriers/heavies and GA's, it definitely would have been a lot more difficult transition. Going through the mil track does not automatically make you unteachable or whatever experience you've had with your 'bad batch'. I do think washing people from 6/7 up/downs to 5/6 towers makes no sense for the most part. Also, with my almost daily headache from the shit show of 12 traffic being a joke, did we just go full circle? What is not considered a joke facility to you?

Previous Experience hires are for the massive majority a drain on the system.

 

[Shikaka]

I wouldn't go that far to end previous exp, I and many other did just fine at my first faa facility and i'm sure all joking aside I would have made it at RNO, the hardest 5 in the NAS. If I went there with no previous exp and had no clue how to mix carriers/heavies and GA's, it definitely would have been a lot more difficult transition. Going through the mil track does not automatically make you unteachable or whatever experience you've had with your 'bad batch'. I do think washing people from 6/7 up/downs to 5/6 towers makes no sense for the most part. Also, with my almost daily headache from the shit show of 12 traffic being a joke, did we just go full circle? What is not considered a joke facility to you?

And to tap on the joke of a facilities, when someone will give an OTS or VRA the chance at a facility versus a CPC stuck on the lower end then have the retarded concept to suggest level caps when moving facilities is completely asinine.

 

[CF]

Those are level 9/8 facilities, you can go to any level under the 4 level cap idea.

Didnt realize that they got bumped up but the point remains. With a 3 level cap someone at a bumpin’ level 8 can’t go to a 12 tower.

 

[Move78]

That’s why the “idea” of a screen was fantastic. However, the reality is that they only brought people in to “be screened” based on their ERR paperwork points. Out of the 36 people here screened, ONE certified. If you had talent, but not enough points to even be screened, you were screwed. If they bring back a screen, they need to screen everyone NOT just the most senior. Even your 2/15 (13%) while hard to understand how accurate it might or not might not be, is probably pretty damn close to what the likely outcome would be if your entire facility transferred to A80 or C90 tomorrow.

I’m 100% in favor of a four level cap. That way, ONE potential move can have you go from the lowest level to a mid level then ONE move to a high level. I also want to see those, at the high level facilities, save pay and be allowed to move down (say after 15 years CPC) to train the next generation to move up. Center is a little more complicated, but you could do something similar or retain them, at the same pay, and let them become instructors either permanently or as part of their workweek.

A level cap is trickier than people are letting on in this thread. If the union supports a level cap then part of the equation is the union supporting an obstacle in the way of a member's ability to earn. Not an easy argument to make. Is that really in the best interest of the membership? Long discussion at best.
Also you have enroute new hires being placed at 10-12 out of the academy so how do you tell the CPC (proven competence) they can't apply for a job that they're giving to a less qualified new hire?
The arguments for a level cap that are being made here are arguments I basically agree with. But some of these posts are intentionally ignoring perspective outside of their own lens.