Future Staffing Problems

[Move78]

Knock on effect of NCEPT. I'd imagine most ATMs are going to try to increase their staffing by at least 15 percent to account for the fact NCEPT leaves them 15 percent below normal staffing.

There’s only about 30 higher level terminal facilities (10%ish) that can blame their bad staffing on NCEPT. And even that is derivative of the real problem which is total hiring and original placements.

 

[Soul_Controller]

There’s only about 30 higher level terminal facilities (10%ish) that can blame their bad staffing on NCEPT. And even that is derivative of the real problem which is total hiring and original placements.

Losing controllers to NCEPT is also a part of the equation.

 

[Move78]

Losing controllers to NCEPT is also a part of the equation.

That would happen regardless of what you named the transfer program. And without the release policy, that everyone hates so much, you would lose more. Losing people to USAJobs/ERR is always a guarantee. It’s just on steroids now cuz everyone gets sent where they don’t want to be and then they have to fight each other for the next job. It’s all by design and it keeps you under the thumb.

 

[Soul_Controller]

Hilarious you think atms are gonna think anything that logical according to their idea of holding us down.

The atms fucked us all those years ago and that’s how we ended up with ncept, now you think most atms are gonna think the same thing? Get a clue.

They are sheep that respond predictably to incentives. Most people are, but government management especially.

The old system consisted of ATMs trying to push release dates as long as they could because that was the best way to prevent losing staffing to transfers. Predictable response. This new shit is too.

 

[Ad1234]

There’s only about 30 higher level terminal facilities (10%ish) that can blame their bad staffing on NCEPT. And even that is derivative of the real problem which is total hiring and original placements.

Hiring the needed number is only part of the problem, any argument made about initial placement lacks context because people overwhelmingly want to go to high pay places once they get in, even if you put people at Ontario in LA, all of them will want to leave for LAX as soon as they get there, very few will stay at their first low Level facility, centers might be a bit different, movement after initial placement to properly fill staffing shortages is another part of the problem and the last is poor training at many facilities.

They are sheep that respond predictably to incentives. Most people are, but government management especially.

The old system consisted of ATMs trying to push release dates as long as they could because that was the best way to prevent losing staffing to transfers. Predictable response. This new shit is too.

What incentives? Movement up the ladder? That’s about it. But even that at high levels isn’t much of an incentive .

 

[Acquired Taste]

The target is forecasted to increase significantly. Also you should get with 32andBelow and uniform your trolling cuz he’s gonna be so mad about an increase.

Any idea when they are going to publish the new numbers?

 

[ChuckNovember]

Hilarious you think atms are gonna think anything that logical according to their idea of holding us down.

The atms fucked us all those years ago and that’s how we ended up with ncept, now you think most atms are gonna think the same thing? Get a clue.

At my facility this is exactly what they’re trying to do. “If 85% is when we start losing people let’s make it so that our new 85% is staffed to the absolute tits.”

That would happen regardless of what you named the transfer program. And without the release policy, that everyone hates so much, you would lose more. Losing people to USAJobs/ERR is always a guarantee. It’s just on steroids now cuz everyone gets sent where they don’t want to be and then they have to fight each other for the next job. It’s all by design and it keeps you under the thumb.

I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said in this thread other than the “you would lose much more” bit. My fac has lost a lot of bodies outright to supe/TMU/quitting that would have otherwise been swaps from like-type facilities. Cant complain though because I’m also at a facility that magically cures everyone’s allergies

Any idea when they are going to publish the new numbers?

I’ve heard rumors of Feb.

 

[Ad1234]

At my facility this is exactly what they’re trying to do. “If 85% is when we start losing people let’s make it so that our new 85% is staffed to the absolute tits.”


I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said in this thread other than the “you would lose much more” bit. My fac has lost a lot of bodies outright to supe/TMU/quitting that would have otherwise been swaps from like-type facilities. Cant complain though because I’m also at a facility that magically cures everyone’s allergies

So Natca collaborated because people complained they couldn’t get their dream facility when they got the sniffles? Don’t give management credit for that. Fucked up this is going to be allowed

 

[ChuckNovember]

So Natca collaborated because people complained they couldn’t get their dream facility when they got the sniffles? Don’t give management credit for that. Fucked up this is going to be allowed

I don’t understand what you mean. NATCA wants a higher number but that has nothing to do with hardships

 

[CaptainObvious]

Any idea when they are going to publish the new numbers?

Probably after the panel

 

[Ad1234]

I don’t understand what you mean. NATCA wants a higher number but that has nothing to do with hardships

You can add a few more hardships….

 

[ChuckNovember]

You can add a few more hardships….

We were nowhere near 100% so this doesn't affect inbound hardships at all.

 

[Ad1234]

We were nowhere near 100% so this doesn't affect inbound hardships at all.

Do you actually need bodies?

 

[ChuckNovember]

Do you actually need bodies?

Idk man, a small increase would be justified but it seems like the people in charge want it as high as possible which I think is cruel since half of our facility was hired after they did away with any say in where you ended up. I get that "we have to represent everyone" but it certainly seems like the younger generation keeps getting shafted so that the people whose houses have appreciated by 500k can get more breaks.

 

[doodii]

We are at a point where increasing funding for the academy nearly requires an act of Congress AND cutting something else. It’s not simply that the FAA doesn’t care but to explain to anyone outside of the agency that the number of academy grad exceeding the attrition rate is not good enough is never going to happen, they will never get it. that is in fact what’s going on currently and the field is also a bit niave to admit that because our training record is complete shit at some places, the ncept is unpopular, and we act that way on a day to day basis thinking we are sticking it to the man when it only hurts ourselves, and managers don’t adequately advocate for the facilities because it’s their way of controlling something. Just look at our numbers, if you certify everyone in training tomorrow our numbers will be 100 percent nearly everywhere. yes I know not everyone actuslly certifies in reality I understand that and that’s not what I’m saying should happen but outside the FAA they don’t understand that, and it’s hard to explain to them. Locally, We also need to know the rules so that we can wash people appropriately and faster to get more bodies in. If someone isnt gonna cut it and we all know it, we do a shit job documenting it or making them better.

Yes we get shit employees, but shit employees have always existed. Compound that with all the things above and here we are

My opinion and the best way forward is for the locals to fight for actual real staffing numbers. What it takes to staff the facility appropriately with the traffic you have currently. And that doesn’t mean appropriate for your break rotation which is what some jackasses think is the definition of appropriate OR have every position open at all times like some dick managers think they need while you take a 20. That way we can either close sectors or entire facilities because they just aren’t needed or get reduced numbers that way the threshold for ncept is reduced making it’s easier and more appropriate to transfer, or increase numbers if needed. Yes it’s unlikely to make a difference because there will always be assholes on both sides who are unwilling to see the big picture but if the union locally and nationally fights for the best staffing numbers possible to fit the actual needs of the nas, we can save the career, we can save the workers and by default the union, get better spot leave opportunities, keep our pay, etc etc.

This actually requires all FACREPs not to be lackeys or suits.

Hilarious you think atms are gonna think anything that logical according to their idea of holding us down.

The atms fucked us all those years ago and that’s how we ended up with ncept, now you think most atms are gonna think the same thing? Get a clue.

I've heard horror stories of an old ATM at JAX just releasing people and screwing manning for yearsssss.

Hiring the needed number is only part of the problem, any argument made about initial placement lacks context because people overwhelmingly want to go to high pay places once they get in, even if you put people at Ontario in LA, all of them will want to leave for LAX as soon as they get there, very few will stay at their first low Level facility, centers might be a bit different, movement after initial placement to properly fill staffing shortages is another part of the problem and the last is poor training at many facilities.


What incentives? Movement up the ladder? That’s about it. But even that at high levels isn’t much of an incentive .

Rewards for not going over XX amount of OT hours prescribed.

At my facility this is exactly what they’re trying to do. “If 85% is when we start losing people let’s make it so that our new 85% is staffed to the absolute tits.”


I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said in this thread other than the “you would lose much more” bit. My fac has lost a lot of bodies outright to supe/TMU/quitting that would have otherwise been swaps from like-type facilities. Cant complain though because I’m also at a facility that magically cures everyone’s allergies

You at PHX? lol

 

[Raise when?]

But it’s a good start…it’s far from a guarantee but having a knowledge base to build upon would be a solid start. The academy basics is nothing short of a joke.

i mean it's good stuff to know, aviation background can't hurt. i was off the street, if someone is committed they will learn all that stuff. problem is and idk what your experience is, but the new generation of trainees seem to not really give a fck about anything lol, least of all becoming 'good' at the job. bare minimum for everything, everywhere these days

 

[32andBelow]

i mean it's good stuff to know, aviation background can't hurt. i was off the street, if someone is committed they will learn all that stuff. problem is and idk what your experience is, but the new generation of trainees seem to not really give a fck about anything lol, least of all becoming 'good' at the job. bare minimum for everything, everywhere these days

Maybe in a boomer but they have finally worked through the whole mass CTI backlog and most peuple are coming from either weak cti school that are still open or off the street and it’s starting to show. But maybe it’s just a back in my day take.

 

[Acquired Taste]

Maybe in a boomer but they have finally worked through the whole mass CTI backlog and most peuple are coming from either weak cti school that are still open or off the street and it’s starting to show. But maybe it’s just a back in my day take.

Well they cut off the CTI path in the Feb 2014 bid. That was 9 years ago. Most CTI people are probably aged out by now if they haven't been hired yet.

 

[I.DO.VEHCTAHS]

i mean it's good stuff to know, aviation background can't hurt. i was off the street, if someone is committed they will learn all that stuff. problem is and idk what your experience is, but the new generation of trainees seem to not really give a fck about anything lol, least of all becoming 'good' at the job. bare minimum for everything, everywhere these days

Makes me sound like an old guy…but yep, I agree

 

[Move78]

Maybe in a boomer but they have finally worked through the whole mass CTI backlog and most peuple are coming from either weak cti school that are still open or off the street and it’s starting to show. But maybe it’s just a back in my day take.

Every CTI grad is exactly as good, at air traffic as a CPC, as they would have been if they didn’t go to CTI. Anyone that’s sharp and dedicated will figure it out. Need both though.