July 2020

[GulfBravoPapa]

Make an effort should mean be a good controller, train your replacement and do your time. It shouldn't mean go offer to deepthroat the manager at where you're trying to go, which I believe is what you're trying to tell me to do

Is it really that hard for you to send an email to the ATM and the FacRep? Just say hello I bid your facility I would really like to work here because ____________. Like seriously if you can't take ten minutes worth of time I would put you at the bottom of my list too.

 

[CF]

Make an effort should mean be a good controller, train your replacement and do your time. It shouldn't mean go offer to deepthroat the manager at where you're trying to go, which I believe is what you're trying to tell me to do

Hey I can’t help if I was blessed with luscious lips. I have to use the tools I have available to me.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

The issue with the train your replacement and do your time is why would a manager pick someone who won't be able to be released until they have a replacement certified. I believe another issue with some CPCs think their resume is going to be enough to get them ranked high. IMO if you put in an ERR you should at the minimum email the ATM and FACREP to even have a chance. Now that tours are out of the question CPC may have to start making phone calls to get considered.
I know a CPC at a level 5 up/down that visited CLT 5 times and spent an entire shift there 2x and got selected over 10-12 CPCs because he put in the work to get his name out there.

 

[Roger_Roger]

The issue with the train your replacement and do your time is why would a manager pick someone who won't be able to be released until they have a replacement certified. I believe another issue with some CPCs think their resume is going to be enough to get them ranked high. IMO if you put in an ERR you should at the minimum email the ATM and FACREP to even have a chance. Now that tours are out of the question CPC may have to start making phone calls to get considered.
I know a CPC at a level 5 up/down that visited CLT 5 times and spent an entire shift there 2x and got selected over 10-12 CPCs because he put in the work to get his name out there.

If we're talking about the same person, he actually is a cpc now at clt from that 5. Certified before people from high level tracons lol.

 

[Dolan]

Is it really that hard for you to send an email to the ATM and the FacRep? Just say hello I bid your facility I would really like to work here because ____________. Like seriously if you can't take ten minutes worth of time I would put you at the bottom of my list too.

No, it's not hard. It's just wrong that this is the way these selections are being determined. Can you imagine if every single controller trying for DFW was dropping by every month to say "hi, please hire me?" What if every one brought lunch for the day they came? The facility would probably get free food every day!

At the end of the day, when a safety critical selection is being made, none of this crap should matter. If one of these managers would just come out with a half decent, consistent way of ranking applicants the system would be a lot better

 

[Robert_Boucher]

If we're talking about the same person, he actually is a cpc now at clt from that 5. Certified before people from high level tracons lol.

I would imagine it's the same guy, not to many people would visit a facility that much. Yeah I went to the academy with him and took a trip out to CLT last year and he was telling me about how he got picked up.

 

[Ad1234]

Make an effort should mean be a good controller, train your replacement and do your time. It shouldn't mean go offer to deepthroat the manager at where you're trying to go, which I believe is what you're trying to tell me to do

I am exactly telling you that and just because you deepthroat doesn’t mean you are bad at your job, also it’s not like anyone can say cpc-it certification percentages are down with the ncept. Also, Because there is no way on paper To tell if you are a good controller or not. There are shitty controllers I’ve worked with and they have been certified at multiple facilities and don’t tell me you haven’t. Doing your time doesn’t always mean you deserve to progress, whatever that means to you. Sometimes if you want something you’ve got to reach out and do what You don’t want to do. Chowing down on some dick might be the way because you can’t guarantee your facrep or manager will give you a good reference when called for one, good employee or not, why leave it up to them.

Edit: I noticed another post you just made about safety critics selection. Who is to determine who is the safest? The union would throw out a ranking system like that out the window so quick.

 

[Roger_Roger]

I would imagine it's the same guy, not to many people would visit a facility that much. Yeah I went to the academy with him and took a trip out to CLT last year and he was telling me about how he got picked up.

Yeah i did the same thing to get the facility i wanted. Visited twice. Emailed the atm and fac rep non stop. I just told them how bad i wanted to be there and that i would be sticking around for a while. It worked.

I am exactly telling you that and just because you deepthroat doesn’t mean you are bad at your job, also it’s not like anyone can say cpc-it certification percentages are down with the ncept. Also, Because there is no way on paper To tell if you are a good controller or not. There are shitty controllers I’ve worked with and they have been certified at multiple facilities and don’t tell me you haven’t. Doing your time doesn’t always mean you deserve to progress, whatever that means to you. Sometimes if you want something you’ve got to reach out and do what You don’t want to do. Chowing down on some dick might be the way because you can’t guarantee your facrep or manager will give you a good reference when called for one, good employee or not, why leave it up to them.

Exactly. Saw a guy was ranked last on that last panel because nobody wants to work with him and thats what the atm was told when they called for him. He been in the agency 10+ years and is actually a decent controller but cant get along with anyone and makes working with him difficult.

 

[Ad1234]

Exactly. Saw a guy was ranked last on that last panel because nobody wants to work with him and thats what the atm was told when they called for him. He been in the agency 10+ years and is actually a decent controller but cant get along with anyone and makes working with him difficult.

and it’s an unfortunate reality but being a shitty employee is just as important as being a good controller. We are truly a team sport.

 

[Dolan]

Edit: I noticed another post you just made about safety critics selection. Who is to determine who is the safest? The union would throw out a ranking system like that out the window so quick.

The union (and controller workforce in general) can't agree how people should be ranked so they are happy to have the manager rankings to point to and assign blame. I think that if we agreed on how people should receive transfers it wouldn't be hard to get the FAA to bite off on it in some form. However, as all of the NCEPT threads on p65 have shown people just won't agree.

It's just infuriating that a lousy controller (or even developmental) with a silver tongue can talk their way into their facility of choice and bypass every other aspect of the job. I could give you lots of names from past NCEPT lists of bad controllers who have done exactly this. Maybe that's just how things are going to be from now on, though.

 

[CF]

Yeah i did the same thing to get the facility i wanted. Visited twice. Emailed the atm and fac rep non stop. I just told them how bad i wanted to be there and that i would be sticking around for a while. It worked.

Did you email them together or take a different approach with each person? I’m in the middle of writing something to the facrep and am wondering if I should include the manager it wait for him to get back to me.

 

[Ad1234]

Did you email them together or take a different approach with each person? I’m in the middle of writing something to the facrep and am wondering if I should include the manager it wait for him to get back to me.

Do them separately. You don’t know if they don’t get along. Approach differently also.

The union (and controller workforce in general) can't agree how people should be ranked so they are happy to have the manager rankings to point to and assign blame. I think that if we agreed on how people should receive transfers it wouldn't be hard to get the FAA to bite off on it in some form. However, as all of the NCEPT threads on p65 have shown people just won't agree.

It's just infuriating that a lousy controller (or even developmental) with a silver tongue can talk their way into their facility of choice and bypass every other aspect of the job. I could give you lots of names from past NCEPT lists of bad controllers who have done exactly this. Maybe that's just how things are going to be from now on, though.

I’m curious, what’s your opinion, how should it be done?

 

[Shikaka]

There were all included in a group text for me, one shot one kill...rah and shit like that...

 

[CF]

Do them separately. You don’t know if they don’t get along. Approach differently also.

This was my thought initially. Thanks for the info.

There were all included in a group text for me, one shot one kill...rah and shit like that...

All he had to do was send a pic of his hog and he was ranked number 1.

 

[Roger_Roger]

Did you email them together or take a different approach with each person? I’m in the middle of writing something to the facrep and am wondering if I should include the manager it wait for him to get back to me.

No email separately. Now that i think of it. I emailed the atm and he replied that he appreciated me reaching out and then i got the facreps number and texted him. Basically said the same thing that i really wanted to be there and had paperwork in. I got passed up the 1st time even though they could pick up people and didnt get anyone at all. I reached out again and asked what happened and they said they were confused they didnt get anyone and had ranked me high. They said wait for the next panel and sure enough i got picked. I told them i really wanted to be there and had family in the area and was planning to make there my last stop.

 

[Dolan]

I’m curious, what’s your opinion, how should it be done?

My solution is just one of tons that have been proposed here but it would be essentially:

Losing facility-
-Has bodies for a release, rank everyone by time CPC at their CURRENT facility only
-Take stock of all ERR's, find the ERR to a facility with a vacancy of the most senior (at their current facility, not NATCA seniority) person, award them the release

Gaining facility-
-Vacancy exists, sort all inbound ERR's by the controller's time at the facility they're coming from, award the transfer to the person with the most time

If the CPC transfers and certifies, everyones happy. If the CPC washes, they go straight back to where they came from and their facility time starts over

IMO would be by far the most fair system. Eventually everyone would get the chance to transfer, and no managers picking favorites

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

My solution is just one of tons that have been proposed here but it would be essentially:

Losing facility-
-Has bodies for a release, rank everyone by time CPC at their CURRENT facility only
-Take stock of all ERR's, find the ERR to a facility with a vacancy of the most senior (at their current facility, not NATCA seniority) person, award them the release

Gaining facility-
-Vacancy exists, sort all inbound ERR's by the controller's time at the facility they're coming from, award the transfer to the person with the most time

If the CPC transfers and certifies, everyones happy. If the CPC washes, they go straight back to where they came from and their facility time starts over

IMO would be by far the most fair system. Eventually everyone would get the chance to transfer, and no managers picking favorites

So people should have absolutely zero say in who they get coming in? No way... if you're a crap person or a crap controller you shouldn't be forced on anybody. If you want to transfer make yourself more appealing. Transferring isn't a right because "you've put in your time".

 

[Dolan]

So people should have absolutely zero say in who they get coming in? No way... if you're a crap person or a crap controller you shouldn't be forced on anybody. If you want to transfer make yourself more appealing. Transferring isn't a right because "you've put in your time".

Yeah this is what I mean, no one will agree.

You already get zero say about people from the academy. Unless you're the ATM, you get zero say about ERR's too. If they suck to work with, they wash out. What would be different here?

 

[CF]

Thanks for the info everyone. OTPHs for all at the next convention.

 

[Robert_Boucher]

Another thing that doesn't make sense for the seniority bidding type selection is say:

CPC A has 15 years in the agency post CPC has in ERRs to into every major facility in the Denver, and Salt Lake area.

CPC B has 2 years post CPC has into LAX, JFK, MDW, or any other facility that typically doesn't get a lot of transfers.

Why should Controller B have to wait for A to get picked up at a facility that he may not have a chance at, when B can get picked up on the next panel.