May (Q2) 2021

[Electricfence]

Your argument of creating a hurdle is the exact same argument low level facilities make when a four level cap is suggested by anyone in the union. However, these low level facilities aren’t the ones dealing with this inability/inexperience and working non volunteer six day work weeks due to staffing. They feel it is almost their right to be able to transfer from CSG to ATL simply because they’re at a facility that can release them when they aren’t anywhere near qualified. The best methods forward would be to have all new hires go to a 4-7 facility (based on background or aptitude at academy), a four level transfer cap, allow CPCs from higher level facilities to transfer down (say after being CPC for 10 years), save pay, and train the next batch of controllers to move up. The mid levels should be the heart and soul of movements.

Im not disagreeing with you in theory, I agree this make sense for the success of the training, but not in terms of employee wants and needs. also, veterans don't always make the best trainers strictly based on experience.

also, what do you do when you no longer have applicants to the high levels from the mid levels? How do you then staff those facilities?

the entire workforce does not put the same emphasis on success in training as you are. Because most people think they will make it at the place they put in for. Trying to convince people your way is better for their success will never work. That would be a very heavy handed way to say the faa knows best so now go to Indy after going to Billings before you can get back to home, especially when there still would not be a timeline and no guarantees.

 

[ChuckNovember]

Not to interrupt, but the projected staffing level is based on the typical training time and success rate, correct? So if your avg training time is 2.5 years your projection number is 2.5 years out

 

[Dontbotherme]

Im not disagreeing with you in theory, I agree this make sense for the success of the training, but not in terms of employee wants and needs. also, veterans don't always make the best trainers strictly based on experience.

also, what do you do when you no longer have applicants to the high levels from the mid levels? How do you then staff those facilities?

the entire workforce does not put the same emphasis on success in training as you are. Because most people think they will make it at the place they put in for. Trying to convince people your way is better for their success will never work. That would be a very heavy handed way to say the faa knows best so now go to Indy after going to Billings before you can get back to home, especially when there still would not be a timeline and no guarantees.

If they truly want to hard to staff, high level facilities, they are going to have to have a greater pay disparity making a move more attractive, PCS money, et cetera to attract and keep talent.
Example: N90
-Max people’s pay out (and all current CPCs there) when they certify (currently $197,300)
- Give $50,000 for people to move and then another $50,000 when they certify and stay for five years as CPC (the same total of $100K they gave out in the late 2000s)
- Give 25% CIP to CPCs (guaranteed for minimum of 10 years after CPC or guaranteed for future and current CPCs until their retirement)
- Give 25% training pay until facility reaches acceptable staffing number

Eventually move the facility to upstate and a lower cost of living area.

 

[boots]

When your nest options include facilities that have 50+ ERRs into them that’s when you know the system is flawed.

 

[Flashy Vectors]

Chick Fil A still has the best chicken sandwich.

 

[Combat medic 92]

Have we heard anything about the swaps today?

 

[jamisjockey]

Chick Fil A still has the best chicken sandwich.

CFA Spicy chicken with the pepper Jack cheese and chick fil a sauce is the winner winner

 

[twn]

If they truly want to hard to staff, high level facilities, they are going to have to have a greater pay disparity making a move more attractive, PCS money, et cetera to attract and keep talent.
Example: N90
-Max people’s pay out (and all current CPCs there) when they certify (currently $197,300)
- Give $50,000 for people to move and then another $50,000 when they certify and stay for five years as CPC (the same total of $100K they gave out in the late 2000s)
- Give 25% CIP to CPCs (guaranteed for minimum of 10 years after CPC or guaranteed for future and current CPCs until their retirement)
- Give 25% training pay until facility reaches acceptable staffing number

Eventually move the facility to upstate and a lower cost of living area.

Nah fuck that. Dissovle N90 and ZNY into surrounding facilities. CIP is a joke. Facilities that should have it don't, facilities that have it shouldn't. Either everyone should get it, or nobody should

 

[CF]

I wonder what the onlyfans botnet guy thinks of all of this.

 

[Bandit117]

Nah fuck that. Dissovle N90 and ZNY into surrounding facilities. CIP is a joke. Facilities that should have it don't, facilities that have it shouldn't. Either everyone should get it, or nobody should

Places that haven’t been able to release a single person since ncept started, despite getting academy grads and mil hires, should get it. You don’t need to pay people extra to work at ord, it’s a career destination. You need to incentivize people at the shitholes, like bis and maf

 

[Shikaka]

 

[CaptainObvious]

Sir this is a donkey at best, and the NCEPT and NRP function hand in hand but they're separate so far as their negotiated terms are considered. Get bitchy at lower level controllers all you want or press for changes to the NRP and placement of VRAs/new hires. NCEPT worked amazingly for its goal of reduced release times, the NRP forces lower level facilities to go wherever they can or face stagnancy while they are filling mid levels with VRA hires.

Your suggestion of bottlenecking a chunk of the workforce for no reason other than they do what they can to move on with their careers is asinine when the issue is blatantly clear that mid-level facilities are stuck in a purgatory of neither receiving controllers from lower levels or releasing any because they fill them up with crap trainees.

Opening up slots in mid level facilities and not filling them with VRA and NEST people, and instead placing a priority on lower level controllers to move into mid levels would alleviate a good chunk of over reaching facilities.

Or we should base all of our training/placement/staffing off of N90/A80 or P80 or whatever place people most likely don't want to go but choose to out of desperation due to shitty staffing placement policies.

Stop painting all military hires as shitty. I got direct hired, got certified bare minimum hours at a 7 and certified at a higher level facility. Every military hire I know minus one has done something similar

 

[jamisjockey]

Stop painting all military hires as shitty. I got direct hired, got certified bare minimum hours at a 7 and certified at a higher level facility. Every military hire I know minus one has done something similar

We got a bunch at my fake 12 in 2015 and by and large they were successful. Only a few exceptions.

 

[atc12bsthrowaway]

We got a bunch at my fake 12 in 2015 and by and large they were successful. Only a few exceptions.

Same at my fake 12. We also haven’t hired any for a couple years, wish they’d bring them back. 6 years natca time is bottom seniority in my area.

 

[TX034]

Have we heard anything about the swaps today?

I would expect that to be released tomorrow earliest. Meeting was held today.

 

[TheFullMonty]

Big TRACONS are easy and canned. According to the guys who have been here for a long time, if you can check out in AMA you can check out anywhere. It takes 3 years to check out in AMA for a reason.

Hey man AMA is gonna take me four years with the COVID year ?

 

[TimShady]

Big TRACONS are easy and canned. According to the guys who have been here for a long time, if you can check out in AMA you can check out anywhere. It takes 3 years to check out in AMA for a reason.

Lol, CM still telling you guys that?

Places that haven’t been able to release a single person since ncept started, despite getting academy grads and mil hires, should get it. You don’t need to pay people extra to work at ord, it’s a career destination. You need to incentivize people at the shitholes, like bis and maf

I disagree, 10% at ord is well deserved

 

[Bandit117]

I disagree, 10% at ord is well deserved

You're telling me that if they didn’t get that cip the hundred plus errs there would get withdrawn? Big doubt. People want to work there bc it’s ORD, losing a 10% cip won’t change that.

according to the FAA cip Is for hard to staff locations, not for working hard. with a 200-300% ratio of errs to total slots it’s hard to argue that ord, and other places that are career goals, have a hard time attracting people to work there when the list of people who would go there in a heartbeat is pages long, I bet someone from MAF or BIS would go there tomorrow, even if you put in a condition that their pay stays the same. They would give up money to leave, bc it’s so bad there

 

[DSM7]

I’ve tried to get a four level cap since, I believe, it was May 2015.


Yet, we should all be surprised when that person washes out of a large tracon because they didn’t have the background to be successful at a busy approach facility.


I prefer to just mention this colossal failure, to them, face to face.


So we should be excited about getting unqualified transfers because a body is a body? Staff the mid level facilities and let those people move up. They have a much better chance at being successful.

Their current facility does not indicate whether they are qualified or not. I know a few people who went from being CPC’s at a level 7, 8, or 9 to a 4 and 5 for whatever reason. If they want to leave and move back up you are misjudging them.

 

[AB19]

Off the street center people are more qualified to work at a level 12 then a terminal off the street person is