Denying leave for the NTI

[123456]

Wrong, we have 41 and 5 are devs, we just follow the contract on some occasions. Remember at the end of the day most controllers only care about LV and Pay, don't mess with that and we'll be mostly content.

You've been correct in everything you've said. I’m sorry i came off as an ass. This is a case of every region/district/facility interprets things differently and most interpret it wrong (mine being one of those wrong ones). I hate that I have to play by those rules, but just know a lot of the NAS has these rules. I’m glad your leadership doesn't suck, mine does.

Point is, NTI is important to upper management, and some will get leave denied to meet goals. Its not ideal, but it will happen. Its getting better, but some are still operating shitty. Grieve it and hope it gets better. The whole FAA/NATCA is shit right now so good luck if you like common sense.

 

[Soul_Controller]

Point is, NTI is important to upper management, and some will get leave denied to meet goals. Its not ideal, but it will happen. Its getting better, but some are still operating shitty. Grieve it and hope it gets better. The whole FAA/NATCA is shit right now so good luck if you like common sense.

The problem is that you guys let upper management tie you in so many knots that it's easy as hell to article 8 you to death and use your own responses against you to support a grievance. FLMs are always pawns in the grievance game (for NATCA and management).

That "look at it day by day" shit just leads to inconsistency. Staffing isn't inconsistent (that's why we have staffing mou's) and workload doesn't mean what you think (it means combining and decombining essentially).

All it takes is a Rep willing to put the work in to straighten this out.

 

[32andBelow]

The NTI is a good thing. Before it they’d find every excuse in the book to only train people 5 hours a week.

 

[ManBearPig]

Thats cool that he said that, but let him have to explain to the GM why he did and he will change his decision. Most likely you work a facility that trains 20+ devs a week and one missed goal can be averaged out and not highlighted in the telcon.

If you break it down to a single developmental and put it under a microscope, denying leave is acceptable to meet the goals. That doesn’t mean I wont approve leave, i will just assess the situation and make the best choice.

Denying a trainees leave so that can meet that trainee's NTI hours is absolutely NOT acceptable. It's a blatant contract violation.

 

[jorgeluis161]

Denying a trainees leave so that can meet that trainee's NTI hours is absolutely NOT acceptable. It's a blatant contract violation.

And it happens so often it's absurd.... Or if the trainee takes leave... They'll have them make up more hours during the week to make the NTI instead of using the impediment... And they treat it like a mandate here... And it's been stated over and over and over again it's only a guideline NOT a mandate

 

[ManBearPig]

And it happens so often it's absurd.... Or if the trainee takes leave... They'll have them make up more hours during the week to make the NTI instead of using the impediment... And they treat it like a mandate here... And it's been stated over and over and over again it's only a guideline NOT a mandate

It is absurd. And something that we need to go to war over. On the list of acceptable impediments, which also lists leave as an impediment, there is "trainer burnout". Lack of traffic is on there.... weather..I. etc etc etc. And management still acts like there is no way around trainees pointlessly burning hours.

 

[jorgeluis161]

It is absurd. And something that we need to go to war over. On the list of acceptable impediments, which also lists leave as an impediment, there is "trainer burnout". Lack of traffic is on there.... weather..I. etc etc etc. And management still acts like there is no way around trainees pointlessly burning hours.

Facts.... Our management here deleted some of those impediments off the excel spreadsheet like lack of traffic wx and trainer burnout... So they can't be used. What I do is write on the -25 that training is not conducive for the trainee' s training and is a result of the NTI.

 

[GulfCharlie]

The schedule is built to accomplish NTI “requirement/goals”, meaning there are enough OJTIs and devs to meet the “requirement”( I say requirement because as an OS if I do not meet the goals I am counseled and PROCd. This is most likely a district thing, but thats all i know, and yes I have tried to use every excuse you guys are bringing up to justify not meeting goals and it always comes back to me failing)

The answer to your question is no i do not call in OT to meet NTI. Sick outs are the only truly acceptable impediment.

I have fought the NTI harder than anyone else since its inception, I’m just not stupid enough to ruin my career to prove a point over training. I’m busy ruining my career other ways.


Thats cool that he said that, but let him have to explain to the GM why he did and he will change his decision. Most likely you work a facility that trains 20+ devs a week and one missed goal can be averaged out and not highlighted in the telcon.

If you break it down to a single developmental and put it under a microscope, denying leave is acceptable to meet the goals. That doesn’t mean I wont approve leave, i will just assess the situation and make the best choice.

You know I could type a super long essay about how messed up this is, but and I quote “Get fucked.”

 

[rugbydog11]

Facts.... Our management here deleted some of those impediments off the excel spreadsheet like lack of traffic wx and trainer burnout... So they can't be used. What I do is write on the -25 that training is not conducive for the trainee' s training and is a result of the NTI.

I write it all the time... "Absolutely wasted hours of training, talked to 3 aircraft in 2 hours. Socked in IFR at 7 am. Rec certification if this is what you expect this trainee to work"

 

[jorgeluis161]

I write it all the time... "Absolutely wasted hours of training, talked to 3 aircraft in 2 hours. Socked in IFR at 7 am. Rec certification if this is what you expect this trainee to work"

That's all we can do it seems.

 

[rugbydog11]

That's all we can do it seems.

Only really helps if that trainee ends up on a TRB because the training form isn't seen by anyone who cares until then.

 

[Termine]

A devs job function is to train, the union signed on to the NTI, if they haven't met their weekly goals, then workload does not permit spot leave

Absolute shit-tier take. Take the spirit of the NTI into account, it's to ensure trainees don't rot downstairs for months at a time because the facility is systematically denying them training. If the trainee themselves wants to take their leave (which they have earned and are entitled to) then you can't pin their lack of training hours on the facility. Make a note: "Trainee did not meet weekly goal because they took leave." Bing bang boom, done and dusted.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Absolute shit-tier take. Take the spirit of the NTI into account, it's to ensure trainees don't rot downstairs for months at a time because the facility is systematically denying them training. If the trainee themselves wants to take their leave (which they have earned and are entitled to) then you can't pin their lack of training hours on the facility. Make a note: "Trainee did not meet weekly goal because they took leave." Bing bang boom, done and dusted.

That’s what they did when I was a trainee. Filled out a -25 that said trainee on leave to show a continuity between training days and non training

 

[123456]

You know I could type a super long essay about how messed up this is, but and I quote “Get fucked.

Consider me fucked. I don't agree with half the shit I've said, but I am providing you with a glimpse into the shit I have to consider when making decisions. If I ever get a seat at the decision table in DC I would fix this, until then, I’m just trying to keep my shitty job.

Absolute shit-tier take. Take the spirit of the NTI into account, it's to ensure trainees don't rot downstairs for months at a time because the facility is systematically denying them training. If the trainee themselves wants to take their leave (which they have earned and are entitled to) then you can't pin their lack of training hours on the facility. Make a note: "Trainee did not meet weekly goal because they took leave." Bing bang boom, done and dusted.

You guys are rightfully mad, but a dumbass OS like myself can only play by the rules provided. Remember, we are talking spot leave, not bid leave. When the impediment tool gets reviewed, they will ask if this was bid leave. There is not an example provided if bid leave being denied for this. If i approve a devs spot leave and they don't meet the target, I get procd.

Please remember, middle management is the absolute worst. Every common sense answer you give me, i have already tried and been shot down. You don't become an ATM Or GM because of your leadership attributes, you get there appeasing regional HQ, who has to answer to a bigger idiot at headquarters. Its a whole thing…you wont fully understand how retarded it is til you make the mistake of bidding an OS job and have to get shit on by the whole shit stack.

 

[Atcbrownie]

The NTI isn't a mandate. It is an agency goal. When that goal isn't met, you as a manager have to answer why it wasn't met which is called an impediment

Leave is an accepted impediment for not meeting the NTI goals. If your trainee or trainer asks for leave and they aren't needed for staffing, NTI is irrelevant. When asked why didn't the trainee meet training goals last week, the answer is due to leave.

 

[jorgeluis161]

The NTI isn't a mandate. It is an agency goal. When that goal isn't met, you as a manager have to answer why it wasn't met which is called an impediment

Leave is an accepted impediment for not meeting the NTI goals. If your trainee or trainer asks for leave and they aren't needed for staffing, NTI is irrelevant. When asked why didn't the trainee meet training goals last week, the answer is due to leave.

It's a goal not a mandate has been said over and over and over again but it seems management can't understand that concept. So when they try to play that game with me I just SL and tell them to f+@-$ off

 

[123456]

The problem is that you guys let upper management tie you in so many knots that it's easy as hell to article 8 you to death and use your own responses against you to support a grievance. FLMs are always pawns in the grievance game (for NATCA and management).

That "look at it day by day" shit just leads to inconsistency. Staffing isn't inconsistent (that's why we have staffing mou's) and workload doesn't mean what you think (it means combining and decombining essentially).

All it takes is a Rep willing to put the work in to straighten this

Workload is far more than traffic. I know as a CPC its easy to view it as that, but I have to look at a lot more than traffic to define workload. OJT/recurrent/etc.

The NTI isn't a mandate. It is an agency goal. When that goal isn't met, you as a manager have to answer why it wasn't met which is called an impediment

Leave is an accepted impediment for not meeting the NTI goals. If your trainee or trainer asks for leave and they aren't needed for staffing, NTI is irrelevant. When asked why didn't the trainee meet training goals last week, the answer is due to leave.

???

It's a goal not a mandate has been said over and over and over again but it seems management can't understand that concept. So when they try to play that game with me I just SL and tell them to f+@-$ off

Bingo! Finally the right answer. We both win. I get an acceptable impediment and you get your leave!

 

[jorgeluis161]

Bingo! Finally the right answer. We both win. I get an acceptable impediment and you get your leave

Yeah but I shouldn't have to burn SL because management doesn't understand the difference between a goal and a mandate. Pretty ridiculous

 

[123456]

You guys are great! Keep your heads up and keep fighting the good fight! I remember when i thought things were as easy as quoting the contract to get my way. Its just not the way it really works. I love the CPC workforce and would take a bullet for some of you. Please remember my words are what goes though the minds of all the OS decisions being made, we not dicks, we just work for idiots.

 

[Soul_Controller]

Workload is far more than traffic. I know as a CPC its easy to view it as that, but I have to look at a lot more than traffic to define workload. OJT/recurrent/etc.

???

Workload is always the same. The problem is that you guys view it backwards. For example, recurrent isn't the workload. The workload is always on the floor. If you pull controllers off the floor then you still need to meet the workload presented (4 positions open for example). If a guy scheduled for recurrent calls in sick, you wouldn't call OT. Why not? Because the workload wasn't impacted. Same thing applies to a non-staffing trainee calling in. You staff the floor, not the break room, classroom, elms, etc.