Denying leave for the NTI

123456

Member
Messages
24
Workload is always the same. The problem is that you guys view it backwards. For example, recurrent isn't the workload. The workload is always on the floor. If you pull controllers off the floor then you still need to meet the workload presented (4 positions open for example). If a guy scheduled for recurrent calls in sick, you wouldn't call OT. Why not? Because the workload wasn't impacted. Same thing applies to a non-staffing trainee calling in. You staff the floor, not the break room, classroom, elms, etc.
Your job is more than separating airplanes. Thats a fact and theres no argument there. Sometimes OT is required to accomplish recurrent training and other tasks. Its not ideal, but it happens and its allowed. Its very easy to fall into the im atc and thats all i do mindset, but the truth is there others conditions to our employment that require our attention to accomplish.
 

ManBearPig

Trusted Contributor
Messages
170
You guys are rightfully mad, but a dumbass OS like myself can only play by the rules provided. Remember, we are talking spot leave, not bid leave. When the impediment tool gets reviewed, they will ask if this was bid leave. There is not an example provided if bid leave being denied for this. If i approve a devs spot leave and they don't meet the target, I get procd.

Please remember, middle management is the absolute worst. Every common sense answer you give me, i have already tried and been shot down. You don't become an ATM Or GM because of your leadership attributes, you get there appeasing regional HQ, who has to answer to a bigger idiot at headquarters. Its a whole thing…you wont fully understand how retarded it is til you make the mistake of bidding an OS job and have to get shit on by the whole shit stack.
It doesn't matter if it was bid or spot leave. That's an idiotic take by your bosses. Fuck them.
 

SolicitSVFR

Member
Messages
61
As per the CBA approval / denial is based on staffing and workload. There is always a unofficial number to run a shift (when we get down to X bodies the supe starts running the OT list). As long as you are above that number (assuming you are used for staffing) and nothing crazy is going on that would require extra bodies on the shift like an airshow or the superbowl it shall be approved.

If your area rep/facrep isn't fighting this issue for you they are a dirtbag, or possibly they think you are a traffic dodger because you are and most likely will wash.
This literally means nothing. Management can deny spot leave for basically any reason. SHALL APPROVE/DISAPPROVE. If management decides shift goals require all CPCS and DEVS for training, then you have no case. Thats why you bid all your leave at the beginning of the year
 
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Messages
28
This literally means nothing. Management can deny spot leave for basically any reason. SHALL APPROVE/DISAPPROVE. If management decides shift goals require all CPCS and DEVS for training, then you have no case. Thats why you bid all your leave at the beginning of the year

It definitely has meaning. That's why staffing MOUs exist. And workload actually has a definition.

If the shift goal requires training and leave is denied due to it, then what happens when the OJTI bangs and the Dev sits around all day not training? You denied leave to staff the break room?

FLMs walk into grievances not because staffing and workload is hard. They walk into grievances because they think the are smart enough to reinvent the wheel every shift.

Not every Rep is up for this fight because going to war over spot leave can have unintended consequences (and not all CPCs are on board with helping devs in this situation). But don't take that shit to mean management is can do whatever they want.
 

SolicitSVFR

Member
Messages
61
It definitely has meaning. That's why staffing MOUs exist. And workload actually has a definition.

If the shift goal requires training and leave is denied due to it, then what happens when the OJTI bangs and the Dev sits around all day not training? You denied leave to staff the break room?

FLMs walk into grievances not because staffing and workload is hard. They walk into grievances because they think the are smart enough to reinvent the wheel every shift.

Not every Rep is up for this fight because going to war over spot leave can have unintended consequences (and not all CPCs are on board with helping devs in this situation). But don't take that shit to mean management is can do whatever they want.
If the DEV isn't certified on anything then they are useless and should be able to take leave. MOU's just cover the bare minimum to staff and train. Management could change that number at anytime if there is a particularly high number of DEVs that day that need to be trained. Not change the MOU, but say shift goals today dictate all hands on deck and no spot leave for the traffic volume and training to be accomplished. Like someone else already said NTI always takes priority over spot leave. I'm not saying I agree with it, I love spot leave. What are you going to grieve? The OS denied leave because training needed to be accomplished? Or he denied leave because the safety of the NAS and he needed more CPC's to fill positions? If your facility is as you say, lots of controllers in the break room then I see a valid argument for spot leave denial
 

Geeare27

Member
Messages
4
My last facility the ATM thought he could deny all spot leave to meet NTI goals. After it got escalated to the RVP that shit was shut down in a day because it's a blatant contract violation.
 
Messages
28
If the DEV isn't certified on anything then they are useless and should be able to take leave. MOU's just cover the bare minimum to staff and train. Management could change that number at anytime if there is a particularly high number of DEVs that day that need to be trained. Not change the MOU, but say shift goals today dictate all hands on deck and no spot leave for the traffic volume and training to be accomplished. Like someone else already said NTI always takes priority over spot leave. I'm not saying I agree with it, I love spot leave. What are you going to grieve? The OS denied leave because training needed to be accomplished? Or he denied leave because the safety of the NAS and he needed more CPC's to fill positions? If your facility is as you say, lots of controllers in the break room then I see a valid argument for spot leave denial

You just named a scenario where where the NTI doesn't take priority in your first sentence. If you try to reinvent the wheel everyday you are guaranteed to make a dumb inconsistent decision and get caught in the grievance trap. Keep in mind the FLM has to remember what he did and why he did it a week later in an article 8 meeting.

All this takes is a motivated Rep. But like I said, not all battles are worth fighting.
 

SolicitSVFR

Member
Messages
61
You just named a scenario where where the NTI doesn't take priority in your first sentence. If you try to reinvent the wheel everyday you are guaranteed to make a dumb inconsistent decision and get caught in the grievance trap. Keep in mind the FLM has to remember what he did and why he did it a week later in an article 8 meeting.

All this takes is a motivated Rep. But like I said, not all battles are worth fighting.
NTI doesn't apply, training can't be physically accomplished. Staffing the facility can't even be accomplished if enough people bang out. The OJTI banged out, he didn't have spot leave approved. My point is NTI takes priority over spot leave, not reinventing the wheel. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue

My last facility the ATM thought he could deny all spot leave to meet NTI goals. After it got escalated to the RVP that shit was shut down in a day because it's a blatant contract violation.
Where is it a contract violation
 

Geeare27

Member
Messages
4
Where is it a contract violation

Where it says "Approval/disapproval shall not be subject to conditional circumstances." You can't just say "spot leave is denied because if we approve it a trainee might not get their NTI hours for the week" or "all spot leave is denied for training" or "your spot leave is denied because we need to train today". A good facrep or RVP will annihilate you in an article 8 meeting.

You have a staffing number. If you're going to deny spot leave above that staffing number, you need a concrete reason why "staffing and workload" demanded you do so. And if you try to blame it on the NTI, a decent rep will take every single day where trainees got their training done with x number of CPCs and say "what makes today different than all these other days training got done with fewer people?" And if your response is "bbbbut staffing and workload" you're going to look like an idiot.

And even then, we're talking about blanket denying of spot leave vs specific instances, which is even worse. And that's not even taking into account the fact that the NTI is NOT A MANDATE.

So frustrating. Y'all are taking a NATCA-FAA agreement to try to maximize training and turning it into an excuse to deny leave that is 100% approvable. The disrespect towards your coworkers is palpable.
 

jorgeluis161

Member
FAA
Messages
17
Facility
PIE St. Petersburg Tower
My last facility the ATM thought he could deny all spot leave to meet NTI goals. After it got escalated to the RVP that shit was shut down in a day because it's a blatant contract violation.
And that is what needs to happen at
Where it says "Approval/disapproval shall not be subject to conditional circumstances." You can't just say "spot leave is denied because if we approve it a trainee might not get their NTI hours for the week" or "all spot leave is denied for training" or "your spot leave is denied because we need to train today". A good facrep or RVP will annihilate you in an article 8 meeting.

You have a staffing number. If you're going to deny spot leave above that staffing number, you need a concrete reason why "staffing and workload" demanded you do so. And if you try to blame it on the NTI, a decent rep will take every single day where trainees got their training done with x number of CPCs and say "what makes today different than all these other days training got done with fewer people?" And if your response is "bbbbut staffing and workload" you're going to look like an idiot.

And even then, we're talking about blanket denying of spot leave vs specific instances, which is even worse. And that's not even taking into account the fact that the NTI is NOT A MANDATE.

So frustrating. Y'all are taking a NATCA-FAA agreement to try to maximize training and turning it into an excuse to deny leave that is 100% approvable. The disrespect towards your coworkers is palpable.
^ 1,000,000% this
 

SolicitSVFR

Member
Messages
61
Where it says "Approval/disapproval shall not be subject to conditional circumstances." You can't just say "spot leave is denied because if we approve it a trainee might not get their NTI hours for the week" or "all spot leave is denied for training" or "your spot leave is denied because we need to train today". A good facrep or RVP will annihilate you in an article 8 meeting.

You have a staffing number. If you're going to deny spot leave above that staffing number, you need a concrete reason why "staffing and workload" demanded you do so. And if you try to blame it on the NTI, a decent rep will take every single day where trainees got their training done with x number of CPCs and say "what makes today different than all these other days training got done with fewer people?" And if your response is "bbbbut staffing and workload" you're going to look like an idiot.

And even then, we're talking about blanket denying of spot leave vs specific instances, which is even worse. And that's not even taking into account the fact that the NTI is NOT A MANDATE.

So frustrating. Y'all are taking a NATCA-FAA agreement to try to maximize training and turning it into an excuse to deny leave that is 100% approvable. The disrespect towards your coworkers is palpable.
First off i'm out of the FAA so I'm not taking managements side at all. Second off "not subject to conditional circumstances." That's the key wording to that section. No one said anything about blanket spot leave denials. The DEV(s) has all their training accomplished for the week, so leave is approved for both CPC's and DEVs. Or the DEV has NOT met their training requirements for the week, leave is denied. The OJTI is denied leave because NTI is NOT satisfied. You think spot leave takes precedence over shift goals? They are not so stupid to word it in the conditional when denying your leave. Meaning they won't say "leave is denied because you MAY not meet target hours" rather "leave is denied because you HAVE NOT met target hours." It's either you met the goal or you did not. Nothing conditional about that. Bid leave is the only protected leave in the contract. All the union does is enforce the contract, you don't get to make up your own rules and feelings about why you think spot leave should be approved. Management has the right to assign work. And if that means they need more bodies to accomplish shift goals then what will you argue? Your grievance would be favoritism or if they approve leave for select individuals but not others. If everyone gets their leave denied equally then good luck winning that grievance. Hence my previous response, bid all your leave at the beginning of the year and you won't have to worry about it.
 

redsphanatic

Trusted Contributor
Messages
432
East way to fix this.
1) Request leave.
2) When leave is denied, submit in writing to the ATM for the ATM to provide a reason in writing why leave was denied.
3) When “staffing and workload” is the answer, question specifics (ie. needed for staffing, call offs, etc.)

If one of the reasons was because of not meeting training hours or some nonsense like that, grieve it. Done.
 

123456

Member
Messages
24
Where it says "Approval/disapproval shall not be subject to conditional circumstances." You can't just say "spot leave is denied because if we approve it a trainee might not get their NTI hours for the week" or "all spot leave is denied for training" or "your spot leave is denied because we need to train today". A good facrep or RVP will annihilate you in an article 8 meeting.

You have a staffing number. If you're going to deny spot leave above that staffing number, you need a concrete reason why "staffing and workload" demanded you do so. And if you try to blame it on the NTI, a decent rep will take every single day where trainees got their training done with x number of CPCs and say "what makes today different than all these other days training got done with fewer people?" And if your response is "bbbbut staffing and workload" you're going to look like an idiot.

And even then, we're talking about blanket denying of spot leave vs specific instances, which is even worse. And that's not even taking into account the fact that the NTI is NOT A MANDATE.

So frustrating. Y'all are taking a NATCA-FAA agreement to try to maximize training and turning it into an excuse to deny leave that is 100% approvable. The disrespect towards your coworkers is palpable.
What makes it different is its the trainee taking leave. How can he meet his goals if he's not there? Theres not a rep that can fight that. NTI is treated and enforced as a mandate by the faa and natca and its been this way for 3 years. If it was grievable then it would have been grieved, and thats a fact. I can text an RVP right now and tell him i denied spot leave to a trainee that was at 10 hours for the week looking for a 3 day. He would say cool, get these guys certified!

East way to fix this.
1) Request leave.
2) When leave is denied, submit in writing to the ATM for the ATM to provide a reason in writing why leave was denied.
3) When “staffing and workload” is the answer, question specifics (ie. needed for staffing, call offs, etc.)

If one of the reasons was because of not meeting training hours or some nonsense like that, grieve it. Done.
The ATM will not respond to the request, he will ask you to have your facrep talk to him. Your facrep will not do anything because they know how things work. Spend some time in the bosses office and you guys would understand how this shit works. You guys who think its as easy as telling your facrep should shadow an rvp for a week to see the real shit they deal with everyday. A devs spot leave will have them laughing so hard.

Again, I feel like I need to say it again. I support you all, but NTI is a whole different animal and its out of a lot of our hands at the fac level. We don't enjoy denying leave trust me.
 

jorgeluis161

Member
FAA
Messages
17
Facility
PIE St. Petersburg Tower
What makes it different is its the trainee taking leave. How can he meet his goals if he's not there? Theres not a rep that can fight that. NTI is treated and enforced as a mandate by the faa and natca and its been this way for 3 years. If it was grievable then it would have been grieved, and thats a fact. I can text an RVP right now and tell him i denied spot leave to a trainee that was at 10 hours for the week looking for a 3 day. He would say cool, get these guys certified!
Funny because the NTI is a GOAL not an MANDATE. On the weekly rep calls is has been said over and over and over again. I agree with it's time to grieve the shit out of this
 

123456

Member
Messages
24
Funny because the NTI is a GOAL not an MANDATE. On the weekly rep calls is has been said over and over and over again. I agree with it's time to grieve the shit out of this
Do it! Just know its treated as a mandate no matter what they feed the reps in the telcon. Union leadership is just as shitty as faa leadership. Not everything they say on a recorded line is the same when they switch to phone calls with each other. You cant forget the political side of climbing the ladder.

Not one person has got to the top sticking to their morals that they believed when they were on the bottom. Not a single person!
 

SolicitSVFR

Member
Messages
61
Funny because the NTI is a GOAL not an MANDATE. On the weekly rep calls is has been said over and over and over again. I agree with it's time to grieve the shit out of this
Because the OS will look at his shift goals for the day and say "Fck these goals i'll take the heat from the OM/ATM for the boiiiiiiisss" What agency do you work for again?
 

Spaceforce

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
911
Facility
Command Center
I was trying to figure out why his name was 123456, then he said he was a supervisor. Makes sense.
 

liter a cola

Forum Sage
FAA
Messages
474
Facility
Command Center
This literally means nothing. Management can deny spot leave for basically any reason. SHALL APPROVE/DISAPPROVE. If management decides shift goals require all CPCS and DEVS for training, then you have no case. Thats why you bid all your leave at the beginning of the year
What's your experience? Were you a manager in the FAA or were you a union rep, possibility a RVP or higher in the union? I would just like to know what you are basing your answer on.

Additionally are you retired, because if you are and you are still lurking ATC forums you need a hobby bud.

If that line in the contract "literally means nothing" then why include it? Why have the contract at all if management and pick and choose what to follow and when to follow it?
 
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