Feb 2018

[ATOH]

Lvl 7 washout here. I washed in the tower at a 7 up/down, so I don't have a CTO or any real quals. Now, I'm in Alaska training in FSS. It's not all that bad, but I'd like to get some insight into the possibility of ERR'ing from here to a low-level tower. I couldn't find the minutes online, and no one at my facility knows much about the process of leaving AK FSS and going to a tower or center. Couple of questions..

1) Did they mention FSS Nest employees (washouts like me who got sent to Alaska)?
2) As a non-CPC FSS employee, should I wait until I CPC to try to ERR?
3) Should I even bother putting in paperwork to anything except for Lvl 4 or 5 towers?

Every tidbit of info helps. Thanks!

If you struggled with the tower portion of a 7 up/down you are going to struggle even more at a VFR Level 4-5 tower. The NCEPT will probably select you for DEN.

 

[jdatc]

If you struggled with the tower portion of a 7 up/down you are going to struggle even more at a VFR Level 4-5 tower. The NCEPT will probably select you for DEN.

You never know, perhaps a level 5 up/down. would be a good (better) choice after some time at a FSS. The person may come back with a better strategy for success, and a better understanding of what they need to do to be successful. A high level facility, well, hopefully they have a bit of perspective on their own ability after the first go....

Then again, judging by a lot of people I have encountered in the FAA, it is a rare person who knows the depth of their ability....

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

How so ICT's numbers look to pick people up?

 

[breakaway2000]

How so ICT's numbers look to pick people up?

0 on the first pass, 5 on the second

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

0 on the first pass, 5 on the second

Darn... Hoping to not lost co-workers I like

 

[breakaway2000]

Darn... Hoping to not lost co-workers I like

Danggg you have people from your facility wanting to move down to ICT??

 

[GulfBravoPapa]

Danggg you have people from your facility wanting to move down to ICT??

Yup, personal reasons

 

[breakaway2000]

Has to do with wife matching at a residency program which she wont find out for sure until middle of March. Id like to be able to put an ERR in to a lower level facility in a city where she has a strong feeling she will match and that currently is a couple of controllers short of their target (but meets national average). My facility has plenty of staffing and only 1 other that has an ERR in so I wont be screwing anyone else if I decline and its not liking Im putting in for a desired, high level facility.

Dang you weren't kidding about your staffing, 2 certifications and 4 new people in the last month? Nice. I've had a number of family/friends that have gone through the matching process, good luck to your wife. From my eyes, it all depends on how confident your wife is that she'll get in. 80% or greater? Throw in for it. A lot would also depend on how long the program is and if that is where she would like to practice as well after residency. With NCEPT panels happening every 2 months now and your facility loaded up on staffing, you shouldn't have an issue getting out on the April Panel.

To answer your original question, TOL's and FOL's are largely irrelevant. You can back out at any moment. Do you risk creating a negative reputation for yourself? Absolutely. Do you risk the NCEPT paying closer attention to people who decline offers? Sure, but at the end of the day it's your decision on what you'd be comfortable risking.

If you elect to wait until the April panel, I'd highly suggest putting in for every airport close to every hospital on your wife's list prior to the ERR submission deadline, then once she finds out, you can call and remove all of the ones you didn't need.

 

[breakaway2000]

Yup, personal reasons

Sadly, with how many you can release and how few places are eligible to release this panel, I would be shocked if they weren't selected.

 

[trvcoastaviator]

Dang you weren't kidding about your staffing, 2 certifications and 4 new people in the last month? Nice. I've had a number of family/friends that have gone through the matching process, good luck to your wife. From my eyes, it all depends on how confident your wife is that she'll get in. 80% or greater? Throw in for it. A lot would also depend on how long the program is and if that is where she would like to practice as well after residency. With NCEPT panels happening every 2 months now and your facility loaded up on staffing, you shouldn't have an issue getting out on the April Panel.

To answer your original question, TOL's and FOL's are largely irrelevant. You can back out at any moment. Do you risk creating a negative reputation for yourself? Absolutely. Do you risk the NCEPT paying closer attention to people who decline offers? Sure, but at the end of the day it's your decision on what you'd be comfortable risking.

If you elect to wait until the April panel, I'd highly suggest putting in for every airport close to every hospital on your wife's list prior to the ERR submission deadline, then once she finds out, you can call and remove all of the ones you didn't need.

Yea lol it appears we are a bit of an anomaly when it comes to lower level facilities. We definitely want to go somewhere with a good program and in a city we wouldnt mind staying in for a while but throw in the fact that a lot of facilities are overstaffed and it becomes more difficult to make the rank list. Thats definitely the plan as far as ERRs go. She only interviewed at programs in big cities with many FAA facilities. It just sucks that the facilities that have openings now (and that we would rank high) could be fully staffed by the time April panel comes around and then we are SOL.

 

[WooPig]

If you struggled with the tower portion of a 7 up/down you are going to struggle even more at a VFR Level 4-5 tower. The NCEPT will probably select you for DEN.

I understand why you'd say that. However, I did not wash because I struggled with the traffic. I pissed off my supervisor, and I washed with recommendations from my trainers.

 

[WooPig]

You never know, perhaps a level 5 up/down. would be a good (better) choice after some time at a FSS. The person may come back with a better strategy for success, and a better understanding of what they need to do to be successful. A high level facility, well, hopefully they have a bit of perspective on their own ability after the first go....

Then again, judging by a lot of people I have encountered in the FAA, it is a rare person who knows the depth of their ability....

Honestly, I learned a lot about the political aspect of air traffic. Even if you try to play the game, work hard, and can do the job, you can still wash if you piss off the wrong person.

 

[jdatc]

Honestly, I learned a lot about the political aspect of air traffic. Even if you try to play the game, work hard, and can do the job, you can still wash if you piss off the wrong person.

I’ve been rated at 3 facilities now. A 12, a 10 and an 11. I’ve never seen anyone wash because they pissed off a supervisor, a trainer, or other controllers.

I have heard that smaller facilities play politics, but if this is the case, I have also heard of lawsuits that were successful on the occasional rougue supervisor and people getting reinstated or moved.

I’m curious what NATCA at your facility thought about this?

 

[Super Salt]

Politics do play a big part at lower, slower places.

There’s literally nothing else to do since there aren’t any aircraft for us to “work”, so the facility is essentially an 8-story daycare.

 

[breakaway2000]

I’m curious what NATCA at your facility thought about this?

I think it's fair to say that a Level 7 with a 33% check out rate lacks strong leadership at all levels.

 

[Homsar]

I think it's fair to say that a Level 7 with a 33% check out rate lacks strong leadership at all levels.

Yup. Sounds like my experience at a 6 up/down with a wash out rate not much higher.

 

[Mike Kilo]

The good news is, depending on how they determine releases from FSS you might be in a great place to bid. Get those ERRs out anywhere you wanna go ASAP!

 

[Bravo Delta]

I think it's fair to say that a Level 7 with a 33% check out rate lacks strong leadership at all levels.

When grant county has a 25 percent success rate and Chicago center is over 80 you have big problems.

 

[tonyandmanda]

Lvl 7 washout here. I washed in the tower at a 7 up/down, so I don't have a CTO or any real quals. Now, I'm in Alaska training in FSS. It's not all that bad, but I'd like to get some insight into the possibility of ERR'ing from here to a low-level tower. I couldn't find the minutes online, and no one at my facility knows much about the process of leaving AK FSS and going to a tower or center. Couple of questions..

1) Did they mention FSS Nest employees (washouts like me who got sent to Alaska)?
2) As a non-CPC FSS employee, should I wait until I CPC to try to ERR?
3) Should I even bother putting in paperwork to anything except for Lvl 4 or 5 towers?

Every tidbit of info helps. Thanks!

I am not sure on how going from FSS back to ATC works exactly etc. and obviously developmentals have successfully ERRed in the past , however, I am telling you right now if you request Jack Brooks Airport (BPT) you will be certified; it will take any fear of non certifying away from you. A child could make it at BPT and that is hardly an understatement. On top of that you will get CPC in months, even if you suck in the tower and take a year it's hard to justify a washout at a tower with 20,000 ops a year. Additionally, once you have CPC you can ERR to wherever you want and I have seen people with little to no experience and terminal washouts make it in center. Everyone has a skill and some it's in different areas, if it's worth it to you I'd put them in. I am just saying, not many people want to go to BPT and its a sure thing. Good luck!

 

[jdatc]

I am not sure on how going from FSS back to ATC works exactly etc. and obviously developmentals have successfully ERRed in the past , however, I am telling you right now if you request Jack Brooks Airport (BPT) you will be certified; it will take any fear of non certifying away from you. A child could make it at BPT and that is hardly an understatement. On top of that you will get CPC in months, even if you suck in the tower and take a year it's hard to justify a washout at a tower with 20,000 ops a year. Additionally, once you have CPC you can ERR to wherever you want and I have seen people with little to no experience and terminal washouts make it in center. Everyone has a skill and some it's in different areas, if it's worth it to you I'd put them in. I am just saying, not many people want to go to BPT and its a sure thing. Good luck!

Training Not Going So Well? Think Beaumont Tower! BPT!

I’ve heard this before somewhere, hmmmm...

Whatever helps the staffing I guess!